sprime
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Posts: 39
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Post by sprime on Jan 31, 2011 23:05:40 GMT -5
Greetings, I am sorry to inform you that support for this iteration of SPrime's Might Guide has been discontinued, and as a result, was removed entirely from this thread. I'm not gonna go over the reasons that motivated me to do so, I simply feel like this thread has run its course and outlived its purpose. The original version of this Guide is still available at the Champions Online Forums, as well as through the Big Box o' Guide, which can be found within this forum's compilation of Silver Guides; and I am still available to answer your questions through in-game e-mails at sprime. You have a pleasant day now.
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Post by healspam on Feb 1, 2011 2:01:33 GMT -5
Hehe - thanks for the link - even before you posted it here, I was already using it to help inform my advantage points decisions and power decisions (at least what us Silvers get) . I have some questions - is the Onslaught advantage for Clobber worth it if I'm just playing The Behemoth archetype? Without the Enrage ability from the Might powerset, I'm not sure if it's worth putting the 2 points for this ability. Also, how is Shockwave as an AoE damage power compared to Roomsweeper? On paper, it looks like Shockwave's DPS isn't as good as Roomsweeper's because it deals Sonic damage, and that Shockwave should just be used primarily as an AoE aggro tool, as opposed to killing clumps of enemies. Could you also please elaborate more on your thoughts of ranking up Defiant? Does the speed at which you gain additional stacks of defiant make putting advantage points here not so great? If you have the time, I'd appreciate thoughts on my current planned build:
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Post by stuffinator on Feb 1, 2011 3:27:48 GMT -5
It's very nice that some gold members stop by and give us silver members guides, tips, other helpfull stuff and especially the opportunity to ask questions if we have some!
Thats community spirit right there.
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Post by Zed Brightlander on Feb 1, 2011 11:26:56 GMT -5
Thank-you, for making this, Sprime! I think I have a question. How badly off would my Behemoth be if he never took (or at least never used) Superjump? If all my hero ever used was Flight to get around a map or to get at those thugs on roof tops and hillsides? IOW - How necessary is Superjump to a Behemoth's survival as a Solo PC? Or even in a group, for that matter.
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sprime
Sidekick
*Kirbish* Poyo! */Kirbish*
Posts: 39
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Post by sprime on Feb 1, 2011 11:31:48 GMT -5
The thing about Onslaught, is that since you're playing The Behemoth, your only source of Enraged stacks is either Roomsweeper or Thunderclap; which can make them kind of a drag to maintain (especially the latter) and forces you to be constantly aware of the time left on your stacks in order to remain at top efficiency.
What Onslaught does, is give you some breathing room by refreshing the timer in-between Roomsweepers, allowing you to throw in some other moves every once in a while.
Do you need it in order to be effective?
No, but it does help to some degree.
Most of the damage from Roomsweeper comes from falling damage instead of straight Crushing Damage; so unless your target is a boss and therefore immune to knockback, you shouldn't see that much difference between the two power's damage output.
Roomsweeper is a melee cone AoE, whereas Shockwave is a ranged AoE maintain. So I believe there's a case to be made that Shockwave is innately more convenient to use than Roomsweeper, as it possess a larger cone and is especially useful against those mobs that prefers to remain out of melee range, such as flyers or VIPER Soldiers.
Still, Shockwave does very decent damage and the only real penalty it suffers from using Sonic damage, is that it doesn't scale with Aggressor nor with the innate melee bonus granted by STR (it does scale with Enraged, just so you know). Plus, it's also the only carrier of Challenging Strikes available within The Behemoth.
If you still aren't sure, try it out in the Power House and see for yourself. Those are vastly different powers, but their damage output is pretty similar as far as I'm concerned.
That's a tough question to answer and I would say that it mostly depends on what you intend to do with it. If you are planning on tanking with this Archetype, then you're gonna need all the damage mitigation you can get.
See, most mobs upon being aggroed, have a tendency to unleash each and every powers they have at their dispositions upon you, and as a result, it is extremely important to survive that initial barrage so that your Defiant stacks have time to build up properly.
What ranking Defiance does, is give you some stacks of mitigation right off the bat, meaning that you won't have to block nearly as much before you can achieve the maximum number of stacks.
If you only solo, those advantage points might be a little redundant, so it pretty much amounts to whether or not you wanna go out with both your scarf and mittens. Rank 2 is a good all-around advantage, Rank 3 is useful but that mostly depends on what you do with it.
Well, first of all, Rank 2 Clobber and Rank 2 Defensive Combo isn't gonna do much for you, especially since you'll discard Defensive Combo as soon as you get Roomsweeper. Having the Crippling Challenge advantage on two separate powers is quite redundant so I would probably remove the one on Defensive Combo as it requires you to be in melee range in order to be applied.
Force of Will is a complete waste of advantage points, so I would urge to stick with either Rank 3 Defiance or move those advantage points to something else, like Retaliation and Unbreakable if you intend to tank.
Otherwise, it's OK, I would most certainly try to get some more points into Unbreakable, but that's about it.
Not at all.
As a matter of fact, you're better off with Flight, both solo and for certain group encounters such as Shadow Destroyer's Dimensional Phase.
I just like Superjump...
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Post by healspam on Feb 1, 2011 18:04:29 GMT -5
Thank you so much for answering those questions, sprime! I have a few more, if you wouldn't mind helping me out. Currently, I use Roomsweeper when I know I can one-shot lowly goons, but there are times when the knockback is overkill or if I don't want to launch someone too far away from me, and so I use Defensive Combo as a single-target takedown, or after softening them up with Demolish if they're a Villain or higher. At only lvl 25, I find that Defensive Combo is still useful in this regard, but once I get Haymaker, will that be redundant? I think I heard somewhere that Haymaker's tap doesn't knockback, but the wiki says that it does. The reason why I asked about the damage comparison between Roomsweeper and Shockwave is because Roomsweeper is my only AoE power at the moment, so it's my go-to power for clearing out groups of henchmen. I didn't go for Thunderclap because I figured that I'd get a nice circle AoE if I need to in Shockwave. If Shockwave does good DPS as well, then I might be inclined to not put any points into Roomsweeper, and just put those points elsewhere, including getting shockwave up to Rank 3 with Challenging Strikes. Does that sound good to you? It just seems like there might be wasted Advantage Points in the form of overlap if I put points into both these powers. I for one know that VIPER soldiers piss me off, and I certainly wouldn't mind Shockwave right NAO . In your guide, I see that once you get the Talents that boost Strength and Constitution greatly you put your remaining talents into booster the two superstats as well as Recovery - is this something you would recommend for the Behemoth archetype as well? What is your reasoning for boosting Recovery over the other stats? You also mention that "having the Crippling Challenge advantage on two separate powers" is redundant, but the only other single-target Power that uses it is Mighty Leap. I thought that having Crippling Challenge on both is justified because Mighty Leap would be used more as an emergency 'save someone I can't reach' aggro tool, whereas Defensive Combo was for holding aggro over an extended boss fight. Am I mistaken in this belief? Should I just put the advantage point in only one of the two? Also - is Force of Will still not worth taking after the Free-to-Play patch? It says Hold resistance as opposed to Stun - did they change that from the way it used to work previously? Again, thanks a bunch for taking the time to answer these questions!
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Post by Zed Brightlander on Feb 1, 2011 18:06:44 GMT -5
Flight over jump. Whew! I was worried there for a moment. Where God gave most people 2 thumbs and eight fingers, with me, he was overly generous with the thumbs. If you think I'm having trouble with blocking, just wait until you see me try Bouncing from A to B. I'm certain to hit G through Q before landing any where near B. btw - Your scarf and mittens analogy... Loved it. Perfect for the weather we've been having here in New Jersey. LOL There's even a sign out in front of a church, with snow half way up it's front, that reads: Whoever is praying for the snow, please stop!
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Post by Kieran on Feb 1, 2011 20:22:03 GMT -5
That's a pretty good guide! If I were interested in rolling a Behemoth, I would certainly be turning to it to figure everything out!
When there have been enough of these guides made for Archetypes, it would probably be a good idea to compose a sticky thread that has links to all of the guides. That way, everything could be accessible to players with a minimum amount of searching.
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sprime
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*Kirbish* Poyo! */Kirbish*
Posts: 39
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Post by sprime on Feb 2, 2011 0:47:52 GMT -5
Well, ahem, I see no reason why you would use Defensive Combo at all, given that you already have access to Demolish to begin with. Defensive Combo is something of a niche power, so it doesn't have much use outside of boss fights and I'd argue that even that might be a bit of an overstatement.
Beyond that, the logical progression within The Behemoth seems to be to use Defensive Combo while you have no other choice, then move on to Demolish and then to either Uppercut or Haymaker as your primary single target attack; though Demolish is kind of an exception, since it can be used to throw a quick debuff between Haymakers.
Haymaker and Uppercut taps do knock whenever they're tapped (have a look at your Aggressor stacks if you're not convinced), the effect is just so weak that you barely notice it. The longer you charge a power, the more potent its knock component will be. Kinda like Roomsweeper.
Keep in mind that you Archetypes can retcon out of any choice you make for free, at the Powerhouse. Given the progression, it's not a matter of putting advantage points in Roomsweeper or not; you need Roomsweeper early on, so it makes sense to rank it and even at 40, you'll probably want it ranked because you'll be using it on bosses to build up Enraged.
As for Rank 3 Shockwave, I don't know, always rolled with Rank 2 + Challenging Strikes + Leg Rumbler; I figure one more rank can't hurt.
Bottom line, Shockwave won't show up in your power tray until 40, and you'll probably want both of them ranked by the end of the day.
That is my personal rule of thumb for talents, to improve Super Stats first and foremost; especially considering that having more CON is never a bad idea.
Everyone got their own way to distribute talents and stats, there are more than enough of them to accommodate both the heroics and the villainous.
Before Free-For-All, I used to suggest END as a tertiary stat for talents, but that kind of changed now that Defiance's energy-generation component scales with REC. Mind you, you won't find much utility gear that offer much beyond EGO, INT and END, so there's still a point to be made for END in general.
In my defense, boosting Super Stats is never a bad idea and since REC's slots interferes with CON (if I am not mistaken), I figured getting more of it through talents couldn't hurt.
Translation: Don't read too much into it, it's just 10 stat points.
Not really. You don't need Crippling Challenge on two powers, just putting the advantage on Mighty Leap will be more than enough; and the whole point of putting it into the lunge is just that, to ensure that you will always be able to reach distant targets.
Mighty Leap stands on a 6 seconds cooldown, which is more than enough to accommodate the following excerpt from Crippling Challenge:
So basically, the lunge will be more than enough to keep the boss taunted whenever you need him to be. (That, and teammates often spam powers with Crippling Challenge, despite having a tank)
Also, I'm kinda starting to see a pattern here, so I'm just gonna squish it before it takes too much proportions.
Defensive Combo is not the go-to power for tanking, otherwise, the Glacier and just about any self-respecting tank would have it. Aggro-generation is almost universally settled with three things : Crippling Challenge, Challenging Strikes and sheer damage.
Yes, Defensive Combo builds threat, but it deals really bad damage; so the effect ain't all that spectacular to begin with.
The advantage's tooltip appears to be broken (might also be some poor naming conventions involved) and we haven't seen heads or tails of a Patch Note concerning Force of Will, in a heck of a while. If you look at the advantage's description, you'll read explicitly that Force of Will improves resistance to Stun and Knocks.
Advantages with special effects are very poorly understood, due to some innate flaw within the tooltips themselves; though they've been working really hard to improve them in recent months.
Anyway, the diminishing return associated with Holds and Knocks makes this advantage completely useless.
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Post by healspam on Feb 2, 2011 3:56:23 GMT -5
Again, I thank you profusely for taking the time to detail why some of my choices were poor ones! I don't think I can retcon for free, though. I've already lost quite a bit of resources (well, something like 8 global, but it hurts so early in the game) retconning . Now it's at the point where it's over 1 Global to retcon just whatever's on top of the list, so I really want to make sure I know exactly what I want to get before putting advantage points anywhere now that I'm paranoid . Thanks again!
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sprime
Sidekick
*Kirbish* Poyo! */Kirbish*
Posts: 39
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Post by sprime on Feb 2, 2011 11:41:29 GMT -5
That's odd, retconning Archetypes used to be free back in Beta, which we assumed was because there was a cap at the number of globals Silver players could amass.
Meh.
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Post by stuffinator on Feb 2, 2011 13:36:22 GMT -5
That's odd, retconning Archetypes used to be free back in Beta, which we assumed was because there was a cap at the number of globals Silver players could amass. Meh. I guess they want to push their retcon token sales.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 20:24:10 GMT -5
That's odd, retconning Archetypes used to be free back in Beta, which we assumed was because there was a cap at the number of globals Silver players could amass. Meh. I can retcon my character into the dirt and I'll only have paid for removing advantage point choices, talents and my travel power. Your specific powers are free to retcon except for the ones you actually got a choice on. It's not prohibitively expensive but it can get pricey.
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Post by healspam on Feb 3, 2011 8:27:17 GMT -5
I can retcon my character into the dirt and I'll only have paid for removing advantage point choices, talents and my travel power. Your specific powers are free to retcon except for the ones you actually got a choice on. It's not prohibitively expensive but it can get pricey. This is correct - I should have been more clear in my original post. You can retcon powers for free, but advantage points and talents cost money to retcon. So if you want to retcon something like Thunderclap into Haymaker, or want to remove advantage points from Defensive Combo (like what I had to do ), it does cost money.
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Post by kiljaedenas on Feb 21, 2011 15:08:03 GMT -5
I'd like to give some counter-arguments to what has been given above, based on my experience with a Behemoth.
Crippling Challenge on both Defensive Combo and Mighty Leap: Not needed, put it on Defensive Combo only. I've found that in both PvP and PvE, aside from Nailed To The Ground, the stunning effect of Mighty Leap is its most dangerous aspect so a better build for it is to add Nailed to the Ground and upgrade it to rank 2 to increase the stun duration. You can always snap out a quick Defensive Combo hit to break a block if you need to at any time.
Build for the Defiant skill: Increase it to rank 2 to increase how much "permanent" defense you have with it, and get the Force of Will upgrade that boosts your hold resistance. In PvP, if a Behemoth can stay in range it will defeat, if not outright slaughter, any other archetype on the field at equal level. Against ranged archetypes their central tactic (which is in fact the only tactic which will allow them to survive for any reasonable amount of time against you) is to spam holds on you as much as possible and pound you with everything they have while the hold remains. Anything and everything you can get to increase your Hold resistance, get it!
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