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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 12, 2011 12:42:53 GMT -5
No, I understand how F2P works very well for reasons not germane to the discussion. Perhaps we could stick with that and not yet another assumption about people participating in the discussion without knowing the slightest thing about them, what they have done or what they do? Good. Now, let's a pick a few points in the discussion. -Adding people to the game does not add any value to my LTS that I actually have. I enjoyed the game fine before the game went F2P. I had people to play with before F2P so merely adding more bodies to the world doesn't change anything. See, that's the issue with trying to address a solid financial situation with a subjective point based on opinion. To you, the value of an LTS would possibly be increased by adding more people to the game regardless of what they do based on how you enjoy the game. To me, my LTS had value already because I was already playing the game for over a year prior to F2P with no difficulty finding people to team/play with which resulted in my purchasing an LTS in the first place. The only thing that adds value to my LTS are features that are worth paying for as opposed to just having them for making an account. The only way people outside of those features add value to my LTS is for them to put enough capital into the game to keep it running long enough to make my LTS break even with what a subscription would have cost me for the same time period (putting hard numbers to that, the game needs to last for 15 months from the date I purchased my LTS). Just showing up to play doesn't add value because that in and of itself doesn't keep the lights on. Showing up to pay does. -CO was not surviving on a subscription based model. It has not survived on an entirely F2P model. However, it is thriving currently on a hybrid model. One is in the past, one is currently working and one is hypothetical based on numbers provided by other games in other genres with different designs, content amounts and primary draws to play. If the primary draw to keep people coming back to CO was the content, I'd view this differently admittedly. But since the primary draw is the customization, putting a one time price tag on it that costs less than people pay for lunch in a week is not financially feasible. You plan to go gold. Why? What made you as an F2P consumer decided to go Gold? What made you decide that the subscription has value?
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Post by scrizz on Aug 12, 2011 13:45:45 GMT -5
people are more willing to spend 4x $3 than they are to spend $12. the smaller the number appears to be, the more wiling they are to buy it. That's why you see a lot of $99.99 instead of $100.00.
It's all in the way people perceive things.
not alot of people are willing/able to spend $300 on a game in one shot. more people are willing/able to spend it @ $15/month
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Post by squirrelloid on Aug 12, 2011 18:25:23 GMT -5
No, I understand how F2P works very well for reasons not germane to the discussion. Perhaps we could stick with that and not yet another assumption about people participating in the discussion without knowing the slightest thing about them, what they have done or what they do? Good. Now, let's a pick a few points in the discussion. -Adding people to the game does not add any value to my LTS that I actually have. I enjoyed the game fine before the game went F2P. I had people to play with before F2P so merely adding more bodies to the world doesn't change anything. See, that's the issue with trying to address a solid financial situation with a subjective point based on opinion. To you, the value of an LTS would possibly be increased by adding more people to the game regardless of what they do based on how you enjoy the game. To me, my LTS had value already because I was already playing the game for over a year prior to F2P with no difficulty finding people to team/play with which resulted in my purchasing an LTS in the first place. The only thing that adds value to my LTS are features that are worth paying for as opposed to just having them for making an account. The only way people outside of those features add value to my LTS is for them to put enough capital into the game to keep it running long enough to make my LTS break even with what a subscription would have cost me for the same time period (putting hard numbers to that, the game needs to last for 15 months from the date I purchased my LTS). Just showing up to play doesn't add value because that in and of itself doesn't keep the lights on. Showing up to pay does. It might not add value to you, but it certainly adds value for some people. And in CO i've certainly noticed its hard for people to get teams to do some things. Nemcon tends to be pretty easy, but TT is less and aftershock even harder (although today will probably be better since its got new stuff). Finding a Mandragalore or Andrith team is like pulling teeth. I might note its empirically proven by Puzzle Pirates that a pure microtransaction model makes vastly more money than a pure subscription model. Cost of additional player: negligible. 20% of their players contribute 90+% of their income. The experiment has been done, 'f2p' pays out 2:1 or better than subscriptions. -Because the market value of 1 month gametime isn't actually $15/mo, its $5/mo (see ebay), which is exactly how many atari tokens you get per month as a subscriber. At which point not subscribing is kind of dumb if you're going to pay any money whatsoever. -Because i am not a casual gamer and even at $15/mo would get my money's worth. People who are more busy and can only game on weekends or even limited time on weekends will probably not pay $15/mo. -Because at $5/mo i'm willing to pay money to play some different characters. I figure by the time my (2) 60-day gamecards run out i'll be bored with the game and be ready to move on, at least for awhile. Unlike other games i've purchased, which i can go back and play again up to 2 decades later, I doubt CO will still be around when i decide i'm interested. It bears noting that a AAA game costs about $50 new and you own it forever. I can't see paying $15/mo when i could pay basically three months worth of subscription for a new game that i'll be able to play for years. Wait 6 months and it'll be like $20 for that same game. Subscription models just lack value because you don't own it, and there's plenty of alternatives - with newer engines and graphics in most cases - that are effectively cheaper if you spend any time playing a game. And games i do buy get a *lot* of playtime from me. I got at least a year's worth of enjoyment out of Civ IV. I got more than that out of Diablo 2 (especially once you figure in mods and modding). I've gotten almost 2 years out of Dominions 3 (indie title, very good strategy game). I still go back and play Master of Magic, Alpha Centauri, X-Com UFO defense and a host of other old games. Basically, CO isn't just competing against other MMOs, its competing against other games in general. (Hell, CO can't even be bothered to write a random level generator - something that's been done since the *1970s* - see Rogue - and its something that would add greatly to the replayability of a number of missions).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2011 4:04:49 GMT -5
Comparing the replay value of an MMO to the replay value of a non-MMO isn't quite an apples to oranges example but it's definitely like comparing red apples to green ones.
All I've gotten from this entire thread is "I don't want to put money into an MMO, I prefer to buy/play non-MMO titles." and subsequently has gotten horribly off-topic.
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Post by hologhost on Aug 31, 2011 22:13:36 GMT -5
First time post.
I can hardly agree with anyone not seeing that selling a power set is already available to silvers. If I want to play an impulse power set, I have to purchase it if I am a silver player. To say that Cryptic will never do something that they already technically do is a bit deceptive. Or it is deceptive of Cryptic to say they will never do something that they are doing.
I do think that Cryptic would make more money selling free form character slots, have the player choose a power set just as they do now, then charge for any power outside that set, charge the player to redo the powers when it is wrong, and charge for the powers again when he resets. What is not win/win in that? He would still have a free form that is hella expensive and Cryptic wouldn't be selling a never ending free freeform character.
Many F2P games sell items and characters that get "nerfed" or "buffed" so a power getting tweaked up or down is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
I know I would purchase a freeform character like that, just to try it out, who knows, it might or might not get me to subscribe, one thing is for sure, I am not enticed to subscribe as of right now and I may never be. The simple truth of the matter is that without being able to purchase a free form first and try it, I absolutely have no desire to potentially waste my entertainment dollars on Champions Online subscription fees, and if the whole goal of F2P is to get me seperated from my money, they are completely missing the boat.
-Holo out.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Sept 1, 2011 9:02:39 GMT -5
That would make sense if selling the impulse was the same as selling a powerset. But the impulse is not selling a powerset. The impulse is an archetype that has most of the powers of the force powerset, not all. The other Archetypes (especially the freebies) aren't even that close to being restricted to single powersets. That's not a technicality, that is what it is. As soon as they add the missing powers to the impulse then we could say they sold the force powerset.
Even if that happens it still wouldn't be relevant. The comment people keep taking out of context in an effort to support their viewpoint was actually that Cryptic would not be releasing new powers to be sold on the C-store. All new powers would be free for golds. This commentary is frequently brought up by people wanting freeform slots to be available for sale to silvers when it has zero to do with that discussion as it was a comment made regarding new powers and their continued availability to golds and lifetime subscribers free of an additional fee via the c-store on top of their subscription.
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Post by Zydrate on Sept 1, 2011 11:33:08 GMT -5
the smaller the number appears to be, the more wiling they are to buy it. That's why you see a lot of $99.99 instead of $100.00. It's all in the way people perceive things. not alot of people are willing/able to spend $300 on a game in one shot. more people are willing/able to spend it @ $15/month Some of us (Ie me) know that that's bull*censored*, though. A penny means nothing. And as a WoW player of 5 years, with only a few scattered in activities when money ran out (Including recently, even) I know damn well that I've spent a -lot- more than 300$ on it total. So I know 300 in one go is actually a really good deal that I'll work towards when I get a job. Just thought I'd chime in.
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Post by hologhost on Sept 1, 2011 12:50:01 GMT -5
I am not trying to support a viewpoint, I am just making a point.
It is nit-picking to say that because the Impulse AT does not have all the force power set you are not purchasing the force power set. You are purchasing it, just not in a free form character.
You, KenpoJuJitsu3, as I see have paid the $300 buck life time gold membership, I applaud you. However, making something available to purchase in no way takes away from your membership, you get all content for that price, you are done. The proposition that a single character that can be built free form, but gets charged for each power out of their starting set, that has to pay to reset it, and pay for any new out of set powers upon reset, in no way takes away from the fact you will be able to do it forever for your one time charge. Which is an argument I have seen thrown out on this forum by gold members.
Anyway, I am off topic in that paragraph. My original point is that I have no desire to go gold without knowing that it is worth my money and I have no way by which to judge that because Cryptic has made a business decision I feel hurts potential sales, just my point of view.
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Post by xitan on Sept 2, 2011 3:15:20 GMT -5
*removed by xitan* Far too off topic for this to be here. ^_~
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2011 7:03:55 GMT -5
I am not trying to support a viewpoint, I am just making a point. It is nit-picking to say that because the Impulse AT does not have all the force power set you are not purchasing the force power set. You are purchasing it, just not in a free form character. You, KenpoJuJitsu3, as I see have paid the $300 buck life time gold membership, I applaud you. However, making something available to purchase in no way takes away from your membership, you get all content for that price, you are done. The proposition that a single character that can be built free form, but gets charged for each power out of their starting set, that has to pay to reset it, and pay for any new out of set powers upon reset, in no way takes away from the fact you will be able to do it forever for your one time charge. Which is an argument I have seen thrown out on this forum by gold members. Anyway, I am off topic in that paragraph. My original point is that I have no desire to go gold without knowing that it is worth my money and I have no way by which to judge that because Cryptic has made a business decision I feel hurts potential sales, just my point of view. No, you're not purchasing the Force powerset when you buy an Impulse. You're purchasing the ability to make an AT that utilizes SOME of the powers in that set but you're not getting the whole set. How exactly is this nit-picking? The premise for your argument is absolutely false. Also the idea that people purchasing individual powersets in a sort of mini-freeform model does affect lifers in that their already devalued purchase loses even more value. Sure the deed is done and they've paid the $300 to get everything for the life of the game but how is it possibly viewed as fair from a business standpoint if Cryptic starts selling the ability to make "mini-lifetime" slots? Bottom line is if you want access to a powerset for far less than $300, then either subscribe monthly or get lucky and find physical copies for next to nothing. Mathematically your best value by far is to throw down the lump sum.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Sept 4, 2011 4:49:58 GMT -5
No, you're not purchasing the Force powerset when you buy an Impulse. You're purchasing the ability to make an AT that utilizes SOME of the powers in that set but you're not getting the whole set. How exactly is this nit-picking? The premise for your argument is absolutely false. Precisely...unless someone wants to argue something along the lines of buying a new car from the dealer with a window and a steering wheel missing is still purchasing the entire car, just not in a customizable way.
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Post by squirrelloid on Sept 4, 2011 12:12:13 GMT -5
I am not trying to support a viewpoint, I am just making a point. It is nit-picking to say that because the Impulse AT does not have all the force power set you are not purchasing the force power set. You are purchasing it, just not in a free form character. You, KenpoJuJitsu3, as I see have paid the $300 buck life time gold membership, I applaud you. However, making something available to purchase in no way takes away from your membership, you get all content for that price, you are done. The proposition that a single character that can be built free form, but gets charged for each power out of their starting set, that has to pay to reset it, and pay for any new out of set powers upon reset, in no way takes away from the fact you will be able to do it forever for your one time charge. Which is an argument I have seen thrown out on this forum by gold members. Anyway, I am off topic in that paragraph. My original point is that I have no desire to go gold without knowing that it is worth my money and I have no way by which to judge that because Cryptic has made a business decision I feel hurts potential sales, just my point of view. No, you're not purchasing the Force powerset when you buy an Impulse. You're purchasing the ability to make an AT that utilizes SOME of the powers in that set but you're not getting the whole set. How exactly is this nit-picking? The premise for your argument is absolutely false. Also the idea that people purchasing individual powersets in a sort of mini-freeform model does affect lifers in that their already devalued purchase loses even more value. Sure the deed is done and they've paid the $300 to get everything for the life of the game but how is it possibly viewed as fair from a business standpoint if Cryptic starts selling the ability to make "mini-lifetime" slots? Bottom line is if you want access to a powerset for far less than $300, then either subscribe monthly or get lucky and find physical copies for next to nothing. Mathematically your best value by far is to throw down the lump sum. I'm sorry, you make no sense. How does buying freeform on one slot compete with 16 slots of freeform +1 every time you get a toon to 40th level? Plus all the other goodies gold and lifetime members get. Paying a lesser amount for one freeform slot is a perfectly fair business model. You paid $300 for 16++ slots, much higher gold cap, power tinting, ~16 costume sets (or whatever it is), a bunch of travel powers, all the new content (just APs so far), etc... for the lifetime of the game. Heaven forbid that one freeform slot cost 1/16th of 16++ slots + a bunch of other stuff. You're right, that makes no sense whatsoever. :Rolleyes:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 5:51:30 GMT -5
No, you're not purchasing the Force powerset when you buy an Impulse. You're purchasing the ability to make an AT that utilizes SOME of the powers in that set but you're not getting the whole set. How exactly is this nit-picking? The premise for your argument is absolutely false. Also the idea that people purchasing individual powersets in a sort of mini-freeform model does affect lifers in that their already devalued purchase loses even more value. Sure the deed is done and they've paid the $300 to get everything for the life of the game but how is it possibly viewed as fair from a business standpoint if Cryptic starts selling the ability to make "mini-lifetime" slots? Bottom line is if you want access to a powerset for far less than $300, then either subscribe monthly or get lucky and find physical copies for next to nothing. Mathematically your best value by far is to throw down the lump sum. You're right, that makes no sense whatsoever. :Rolleyes: I'm glad we agree on this. Paying the ~$35 dollar price tag for one single character with the ability to go freeform for the life of the game makes LOADS of sense. Tack on the fact that you'll still be limited by the inventory restrictions, the 250 global limit, the market limits, the smaller bank, etc... it will add up quickly. Your assumption is that the only draw of being gold/lifetime is strictly the freeform. You're entitled to that opinion but I assure you that's not entirely the case. Pay $15/monthly and not be nickled and dimed by seemingly small details like I mentioned already or shell out ~$35 and STILL be at the mercy of the nickel and dime layout. It's a FAR better value to just subscribe to the game. I swear these "I want a freeform slot" ideas all boil down to "I don't want to give them any more money than I have to." Next thing you know, if they ever make freeform slots available then the ones that purchase one will want PTS access as well. Give a mouse a cookie... Prove me wrong.
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Post by squirrelloid on Sept 5, 2011 10:27:18 GMT -5
So you're saying that selling LTSes was a mistake as well, then?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 11:58:14 GMT -5
So you're saying that selling LTSes was a mistake as well, then? Seems my sarcasm was too deeply embedded in my last statement. tl;dr No
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