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Post by Starboard_Nacelle on Aug 9, 2011 10:26:43 GMT -5
Someone has done the research on how much it would cost a Silver member to get everything that a Gold gets for free that can be purchased and it was a staggeringly high number. This idea would see that number increase a great deal. In the long run it's much cheaper to simply sub to the game or get a game card. That would be me, and I am here to destroy this thread. 1) Allow a purchase of Free Form slots The only way to do this without making Gold subscriptions pointless (and pissing off a considerably large portion of the playerbase to boot) would be to factor in the cost of every power framework Silvers don't have access to with a free archetype as an additional archetype purchase. Since there are 7 frameworks represented with the 7 free archetypes, that leaves 17 power frameworks. At 920 Atari Tokens apiece, it comes to 15,640 Atari Tokens, or $200.00 USD. Keep in mind, this is per slot. You would be parting with the majority of the cost of a lifetime subscription to have one freeform character. You're better off spending the additional $99.99 and getting theoretically infinite character slots. This is why Cryptic hasn't offered the option, and this is why they never will. It's bad for the consumer and bad for the company's reputation. "They're not going to sell something like that as it would essentially be a "mini lifetime sub"."Well, yes... that's exactly the point. It's a mini lifetime sub for people that aren't going to buy a lifetime sub, or use enough of the perks of a subscription to justify it. The difference is only $99.99, and you get 15 more character slots to start. I'd say the lifetime option is infinitely more valuable.
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Post by koralis on Aug 10, 2011 15:37:42 GMT -5
Because the groups of powers and tailored to be balanced across the board - even by the free ATs. By allowing Silvers to tailor their builds, they can make builds that vastly overpowers the other ATs, at which point you have paid to win. Except a "freeform" silver isn't an AT at all. If it's ok for Gold to not be "balanced", what's the difference? The "freeform silver" wouldn't be in the 'Hero Games (AT)' just like Gold isn't. Who's "winning?" The real reason is "we want silver to feel limited and lame so that they'll buy a subscription", but what do you say it is? You guys can't have it both ways... either the flexibility isn't more powerful or it is. "You're sadly mistaken if you're claiming that Golds/Lifers are pay to win packages against Silvers. Why must everyone pit the subscribers against the free players with arguments like that? ATs can and do compete well against freeform characters in both PvP and PvE. "I don't have much to offer except to note that successful F2P scenarios move their mindset away from subscriptions and instead towards providing content that people will choose to buy. Most of the game is very limited in terms of compelling content. The aftershock series I just started isn't bad though. More like that at reasonable purchases prices could generate a revenue stream from people like me. However, if there's enough Gold players subscribing that they don't need the F2P guys, then there's no great reason to do it. They just shouldn't be surprised when any F2P that isn't very invested doesn't see the value in purchasing "stuff" from their stores. Not being invested = ability to walk away at a moment's notice with no regrets. Well, I'm not planning on spending $150, let alone $300, and hoping to get a "lifetime" of use out of a game, particularly when most MMOs have a fairly limited lifespan before they close down. But then, I also refuse to Spend $8-10 on DLC for games that I own... overpriced, won't do it. But again, that's just me. Apparently there are enough people subscribing to MMOs and buying overpriced DLC that the developers don't care about my $... fine by me, I just buy something else.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 16:41:12 GMT -5
But then, I also refuse to Spend $8-10 on DLC for games that I own... overpriced, won't do it. But again, that's just me. Apparently there are enough people subscribing to MMOs and buying overpriced DLC that the developers don't care about my $... fine by me, I just buy something else. So you're coming up with nickel and dime ideas for Champions but will refuse to spend money on downloadable content? If I went by that sort of logic then I'd refuse to purchase anything in the c-store whatsoever. See how that works?
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 11, 2011 7:17:01 GMT -5
But then, I also refuse to Spend $8-10 on DLC for games that I own... overpriced, won't do it. But again, that's just me. Apparently there are enough people subscribing to MMOs and buying overpriced DLC that the developers don't care about my $... fine by me, I just buy something else. So you're coming up with nickel and dime ideas for Champions but will refuse to spend money on downloadable content? If I went by that sort of logic then I'd refuse to purchase anything in the c-store whatsoever. See how that works? That's exactly how I've read this thread as well. At least now I know I'm not the only one seeing this...
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Post by squirrelloid on Aug 11, 2011 12:28:30 GMT -5
Every way these suggestions are made amounts to more for less for the player which isn't exactly in the best interest of Cryptic as a business. WARNING!! Logical fallacy! You're seem to be assuming less revenue from the average single player = less revenue for cryptic. But if there are more consumers paying cryptic money, they may actually make more money by making the option available. Sure, some people are probably paying cryptic more than they actually would if a freeform slot were sold. But a pile of people aren't paying cryptic anything who might shell out $15-20 for a single freeform slot. That's all lost revenue right there. You also haven't actually demonstrated average revenue per customer would go down, all you've demonstrated is some subscribers might pay cryptic less money, but the average payment per customer might well go up. I have yet to see any evidence that a subscription system makes more money than a well thought out microtransaction model unless you happen to be the dominant MMO on the market, and there is evidence that microtransaction models generate substantially more revenue than subscription models (See Three Rings' YPP).
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 11, 2011 12:46:54 GMT -5
Every way these suggestions are made amounts to more for less for the player which isn't exactly in the best interest of Cryptic as a business. WARNING!! Logical fallacy! You're seem to be assuming less revenue from the average single player = less revenue for cryptic. But if there are more consumers paying cryptic money, they may actually make more money by making the option available. Sure, some people are probably paying cryptic more than they actually would if a freeform slot were sold. But a pile of people aren't paying cryptic anything who might shell out $15-20 for a single freeform slot. That's all lost revenue right there. You also haven't actually demonstrated average revenue per customer would go down, all you've demonstrated is some subscribers might pay cryptic less money, but the average payment per customer might well go up. I have yet to see any evidence that a subscription system makes more money than a well thought out microtransaction model unless you happen to be the dominant MMO on the market, and there is evidence that microtransaction models generate substantially more revenue than subscription models (See Three Rings' YPP). Warning: Failure to mind read. Proceed to speculation and assumption based conjecture model. I assume nothing. I go on the situation pre and post F2P according to what Cryptic has released and my own observations. Nothing more, nothing less. Post F2P all indications is that the current model is working for Cryptic so where is the motivation to change it? I'm waiting for anyone, and I mean anyone to provide a factual basis for this and at the same time provide a suggestion that makes more financial sense for Cryptic than what is already working for them. As it stands some numbers have been put up and some sound reasoning behind them as well (see: Starboard_Nacelle) and no one has really provided a sound counter-argument to them. In other words, I can link to a bunch of stuff from Cryptic that, when paraphrased, say "what we are doing is currently working and we don't need to change it." And the best that can be brought up on the other end is "the average payment per customer might well go up." Short version. People want what others are paying $15 a month for or have already paid $199/$240/$300 for without paying those amounts. It's the same discussion every time with a lot of justifications and guesswork to support nickle and diming but no hard evidence or real numbers. Start here: People want to buy a freeform slot? OK, if $15 a month is too much and $300 lump sum is too much then what is a good price? Give a real number and go from there.
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Post by squirrelloid on Aug 11, 2011 13:04:53 GMT -5
I did give a real number. $15-20 for a single freeform slot.
-It doesn't really trample on gold or lifetime (have 8 and 16 slots respectively, plus an extra slot whenever a character hits 40, in addition to all the other benefits of subbing).
-It reaches whole new segments of the market who either don't like subscription models or can't justify the expense month after month because they play casually.
-The goal of a company is to make the most money possible. Doing fine doesn't mean they couldn't be doing better.
----------------------- I'd also propose that cryptic give silvers the same limits on AH slots as golds (because no one is going to buy those with cash) or at least higher limit than 10, and give them the same gold cap. The current way silvers are limited only serves to annoy golds as silvers use zone chat to work around the limits (and absolutely have to in the case of the gold cap).
------------------ Fundamentally Cryptic needs to stop thinking about silver players as previewing for a subscription, and start thinking of them as a source of additional value for the paying customers, and as potential paying customers on a different model. As Three Rings found out, most of its revenue comes from 20% of its 'f2p' player base, but the rest of the players add value which keep those paying customers around and buying dubloons month after month.
(Honestly, if i were running cryptic's business strategy, i'd revamp the c-store to be focused on individual microtransactions which had low individual cost and built-in senescence measured in play time, and allow players to trade Atari Credits (or whatever they are now) for Resources via an in-game market. I'd let Gold players buy (some/all) stuff from the c-store for resources instead of credits. And I'd open up the full game engine to everyone for free. Also: purchaseable furniture for hideouts - why do we not have that yet?).
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 11, 2011 13:26:18 GMT -5
Hmmmm, I'm going to ignore the bit about giving Silvers the same (insert thing here) as Golds. That's merri-go-round conversation.
$15-$20 kills some things they are already selling.
-Why would anyone really spend $11.50 for an AT when they can add $3.50 for a freeform?
-Why would anyone really buy heals and other such consumables if they could pick a heal or several as a freeform?
-Why would anyone really buy an AT at all if they could pay a small flat rate for unlimited access to every single power in the game for $15-$20 and then they're just some in-game currency away from changing their entire build to any AT or variant they want...? Forever.
-Why would anyone subscribe at all if they could pay that rate for a few slots and just respec old characters when they're bored with them (since they now have access to every power in the game) and could just purchase a few costume packs? and make a one time purchase if necessary of bank and bag slots.
$15-$20 undermines the cost of so many things (I can list more if need be for the discussion). Arguably too many things, and again it boils down to make what those guys paid X for available for me for cheaper (or in the case of some of the stuff you mentioned, just straight up give that away for free too) in hopes that it will positively impact sales when what's currently taking place is already proven to positively impact sales.
I'm not seeing it. Especially not at that price point. No reputable business undercuts their own shop like that.
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Post by Pion on Aug 11, 2011 14:06:28 GMT -5
I did give a real number. $15-20 for a single freeform slot. It's also been pointed out that at $20 you could match all 8 character slots for $160. You spend another $100 in the store for what you feel is the appropriate number of bag, bank slots and costumes and you're at $260. That's less than an LTS. Except you have everything an LTS does, negating the reason for an LTS. And that's if you want to bother trying to match it. The argument that people wouldn't spend that much in one shot, but more people would be spending for a greater sum is great, but only if it can be proven/guaranteed that such would occur, AND occur to such an extent that it would be worth losing the money from an LTS/sub.
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Post by PoochieHellhound on Aug 11, 2011 14:58:43 GMT -5
Getting just the same amount of freeforms that an LTS can have (16) costs more than a LTS already.
However, I agree with Kenpo, it's virtually impossible to put a price on Freeform Slots without destroying the current economy of the C-Store.
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Post by squirrelloid on Aug 11, 2011 19:33:29 GMT -5
Ok, first of all, the real value of an LTS is decreasing insofar as the game is not going to last forever. And even if the game continues for quite awhile, some new game is going to dethrone CO (much like CO did to CoX) eventually. So treating the price of an LTS as a relevant value is kind of nonsensical.
However, at $20 for a freeform slot, it would take $320 just for 16 freeform slots, plus buying 14 additional character slots, and you still get none of the other benefits (like an additional free freeform character slot every time you reach level 40, or bank slots, gold cap, etc...). At almost $15 for 2 character slots, that's near $105 or ~$400 just to get the same number of base freeform slots as a LTS.
Regarding why get more slots/toons when you can buy freeform and revamp: Because some people like alts Because some people want to keep their old characters Insert favorite reason here, i could go on for awhile.
Do you seriously pay $15 a month for 1 character?
Sure, they could just revamp their character every time they wanted to do something different, but not everybody would. Why does cryptic sell extra character slots? Oh yeah, because not every silver wants to delete a character to try a different AT once they have two...
I think AT price could also be revised down and they'd probably sell more of them at a more reasonable price. When a given silver account can only reasonably have 2 toons, charging more than $10 for an AT is insane. But then, almost everything in the c-store is stupid overpriced because they aren't actually trying to maximize profits from silvers, they're trying to convince them to go gold instead.
And the only thing i proposed giving silvers for free are stuff silvers can't or won't buy anyway. Remember that a player who pays cryptic nothing is adding value for people who are paying money - at which point cryptic should remove obstacles which cause them to annoy those people who pay money, especially when there's little to no chance they'll be able to successfully charge money to avoid the situation. (I'd love to see data on AH slot sales, i'm guessing they've sold very few. There is no way to increase the gold cap as a silver player).
My musings on what i'd do if i ran the c-store would dramatically alter what people pay for in the game, not give more things for free but rather change what's available for free and what's not. (I dislike pay for power, and a number of other games have shown you can make piles of money by only requiring use of cash-denominated resources for cosmetic items, but those cosmetic items need to auto-senesce after some amount of time).
Pion: Once you account for the cost of those extra slots, i think you'll find your cost estimate is higher than an LTS for half the slots.
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Post by scrizz on Aug 11, 2011 22:08:36 GMT -5
I agree with you on every point listed. LTS imo is not worth $300 anymore.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 12, 2011 7:45:30 GMT -5
it's virtually impossible to put a price on Freeform Slots without destroying the current economy of the C-Store. That's it in a nutshell and the math presented by both sides of the discussion supports this. The best alternative suggestion now is to 'offer freeforms for $20 and then lower the price of nearly everything else in the store that would suddenly lose value in hopes of it getting people to spend more money'. What's odd is that the price of things were already lowered to get people to spend more money. Price of what? The majority of the game itself became free. If we want to talk about the presumed value of an LTS that alone was the biggest blow to it's value to date. Now the debate becomes "well, lower the prices of what's left that isn't free even more to make more money". I'll agree the value of an LTS isn't what it used to be, but not for the reasons and projections mentioned here.
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Post by squirrelloid on Aug 12, 2011 9:28:57 GMT -5
it's virtually impossible to put a price on Freeform Slots without destroying the current economy of the C-Store. That's it in a nutshell and the math presented by both sides of the discussion supports this. The best alternative suggestion now is to 'offer freeforms for $20 and then lower the price of nearly everything else in the store that would suddenly lose value in hopes of it getting people to spend more money'. What's odd is that the price of things were already lowered to get people to spend more money. Price of what? The majority of the game itself became free. If we want to talk about the presumed value of an LTS that alone was the biggest blow to it's value to date. Now the debate becomes "well, lower the prices of what's left that isn't free even more to make more money". I'll agree the value of an LTS isn't what it used to be, but not for the reasons and projections mentioned here. I'm sorry, but you seem to not understand how F2P makes money, and that F2P makes more money than subscriptions ever will. www.forbes.com/2008/03/31/free-video-games-tech-personal-cx_mji_0331free.htmlQuote: "Soon after launching its casual multiplayer game "Puzzle Pirates," James calculated the cost of adding additional players to the game was negligible. In 2005, James broke down the toll booth--instead, players could use real cash to buy virtual doubloons--which, in turn, they could use to bedeck their pirates in loot or purchase other status symbols. Over a year, "Puzzle Pirates" went from collecting $50,000 a month in subscriptions to raking in twice that by selling virtual doubloons. Only 15% to 20% of "Puzzle Pirates" players ever buy doubloons--but those who do buy a lot. Virtual currency purchases accounted for roughly 75% of Puzzle Pirates $4 million revenue in 2007. It's a lot like letting crowds into a movie theater for free, then collecting serious coinage from those who crave popcorn and Jolly Ranchers." For those not familiar, YPP's model lets free players use *the entire game* via an in-game market that exchanges dubloons (cash-denominated currency) for Pieces of Eight (currency found in-game). Dubloons are required for many purchases - ships, many clothes and weapons, housing, furniture, etc... Buying dubloons can let a player acquire more stuff faster - trading money for time - by selling them to players for PoE via the market, or of course let them use the dubloons normally. Non-paying players can buy cash-denominated currency with in-game currency, and thus experience the whole game simply by spending the time to earn PoE. That's right, they're giving away the whole game free, and making a lot of money doing it. --------------------- The value of an LTS actually increased with the move to free to play - adding more players added value to the game for those already playing. If you don't understand that, you don't understand what gives MMOs value, and its probably futile to even discuss this with you. Further, since CO clearly wasn't surviving on a subscription model, the move to F2P definitely increased the value of an LTS for another reason: the game still exists. Value of an LTS -> 0 when the game stops existing. --------------------- Since we'll never see actual figures from Cryptic on how much money they make from various sources, what the average subscription length is, or what differences in consumption they see when they have sales; so its all pure speculation where the exact price point for various things should be. But i'm willing to bet that well over $10 an AT is vastly more than much of the player base is willing to pay, and that the maximum profit price is somewhere near $5 per AT, about the same per character slot if they're lucky, and they'd do better selling individual costume pieces for $0.10 - $0.50 than only selling full packages at ~$4. But then, they don't seem to understand what *micro* transactions are. I can't prove any of this of course, because i'll never see their sales figures, but as a reasonable fraction of the player base seems to be college students or younger working with limited cash, i doubt i'm that far off. -------- FWIW, i'm going gold just as soon as my 60-day cards arrive, so this really isn't a 'give me more stuff' perspective, this is an attempt at a rational assessment of what would make Cryptic the most money.
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Post by Jaxton Dragoon on Aug 12, 2011 10:19:55 GMT -5
To me an LTS is worth it as I am still enjoying the game and compared to the $15 per month I would have to assume I would continue playing for 20 months to make the price worthwhile. As of right now I see this as a very good possibility as I have several characters I am actively playing and several more concepts I would like to create.
The only way I can see Cryptic releasing a Freeform Archetype for purchase is essentially in the way both Joh and I have said before. Create a new 'Hybrid' or 'Combo' Archetype that could be purchased, this would likely cost a bit more than a standard archetype but depending upon whether its for one slot only or simply a switch the cost would vary. Upon selecting this new Archetype the player would then select the two (or three) Archetypes they wished to combine and at the level ups they would be able to choose between the powers of the Archetypes they have chosen. Play would be exactly the same as with current Archetypes with powers granted at the same levels and with this new Archetype still having less total powers than a true Freeform. In essence this would be similar to a player custom version of the existing Specialist Archetype.
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