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Post by koralis on Aug 5, 2011 10:08:27 GMT -5
After posting a comment last night on the "Silver for Free" thread I did some soul searching with regards to the "depth" comment. It seems to me that much of the depth is reserved for the Freeform users. There's no serious consideration, planning, etc, that goes on with the archeotypes. There are some small choices, but they're small choices. Mostly you're playing what the designers laid out. As previously stipulated, I'm not subscribing to games any longer, so that's out for me and if I feel that way I'm sure there are others that feel the same... the only way to get money out of them is with a string of one-time purchases. So, how to bring Cryptic more money without canibalizing their subscription base for those who choose to go "all-out?" What do I think works in other games that do a F2P model? This is what I came up with: 1) Allow a purchase of Free Form slots 2) Each power and ability that you add also must be purchased and is ONLY applicable to that particular slot. (If someone wants 5 FF characters all with CoolPowerX, they buy CoolPowerX 5 times.) Pricing can be tweaked based on popularity/power/whatever 3) As incentive for people to make and play multiple characters, if someone "reuses" the same power as they'd previously purchased on the account, the second and third FF characters can get that same power at a discount. This way someone might choose to make flavors of the same concept if they're not quite sure which way to go and they don't feel penalized by the system (ie. you're "Helping them out.") If someone start playing freeform and finds it adds the depth they like, but they want to explore different concepts, then they'll need to buy multiple slots with multiple powers multiple times, which the subscribers won't need to. For anyone that is against subscriptions in principle, it's money that Cryptic wouldn't see. Purchasing individual powers and the slots will cost the customer much more than playing with an archetype, even a purchased one. Just a thought for Cryptic after thinking through what it would take to make me part with some cash. Just my way of "giving back" for tweaking around in your sandbox.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 10:25:46 GMT -5
Purchasing freeform slots is a dead horse that's been beaten to...well, death. They're not going to sell something like that as it would essentially be a "mini lifetime sub".
Purchasing individual powers and having to repurchase them for other characters? How is that supposed to be enticing and how is it dissimilar to the "mini lifetime sub" problem?
Someone has done the research on how much it would cost a Silver member to get everything that a Gold gets for free that can be purchased and it was a staggeringly high number. This idea would see that number increase a great deal. In the long run it's much cheaper to simply sub to the game or get a game card.
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Post by koralis on Aug 5, 2011 10:41:36 GMT -5
"They're not going to sell something like that as it would essentially be a "mini lifetime sub"."
Well, yes... that's exactly the point. It's a mini lifetime sub for people that aren't going to buy a lifetime sub, or use enough of the perks of a subscription to justify it.
Silver is already an absolutely free lifetime sub (barring adventures), it's just limited variety. They've already gone down this road.
"Someone has done the research on how much it would cost a Silver member to get everything that a Gold gets for free that can be purchased and it was a staggeringly high number"
Only if you actually use all of the perks. That's the flaw in the theory.
In the long run it's much cheaper to simply sub to the game or get a game card.
I might possibly spend $50 on the game in total... basically comparable to buying a single-player game off the shelf (or buying several when discounted on Steam.)
I can go back and re-play the game when I feel like it. A subscription to this would be 5 months, then you're done. Even if I get the same amount of use out of it, I won't do that any more after going through the trauma of unsubsribing from two other games over time and discovering that I was renewing "just because" I might want to play again.
On the other hand, if I have purchased the character and have been enjoying it, it might be more convinced to pick up the odd adventure pack to continue with. There's a potential additional revenue stream, it's just not a given.
Purchasing individual powers and having to repurchase them for other characters? How is that supposed to be enticing and how is it dissimilar to the "mini lifetime sub" problem?
It doesn't allow a player to have unlimited flexibility like a subscriber does, who can pick and choose his powers, go revamp at the power house if they don't like the way it's coming out, etc. That's the tradeoff for not being a subscriber. You're purchasing one character at a time, with very particular powers... essentially it amounts to "Build your own Archetype.", not quite Freeform.
But ultimately, it's a suggestion, not a demand. If cryptic hadn't considered this particular permutation of the purchasable freeform idea I figured I'd throw it out there.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 5, 2011 10:53:02 GMT -5
A major snag in this idea is Cryptic's oft repeated stance that they will not ever sell individual powers. They will sells skins for powers (see: travel powers on c-store) but will not sell actual powers. This has been stated on the official forums multiple times by several different Cryptic devs.
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Post by koralis on Aug 5, 2011 10:59:20 GMT -5
A major snag in this idea is Cryptic's oft repeated stance that they will not ever sell individual powers. They will sells skins for powers (see: travel powers on c-store) but will not sell actual powers. This has been stated on the official forums multiple times by several different Cryptic devs. Hmm. Yes, that would be a problem, but policies can be changed/ammended/clarified. For example, I imagine that such statements were with regards to Subscribers being charged extra for "bonus powers" not generally available to everyone, setting up a Pay-to-Win situation for Hero Games, etc. The stance could be clarified to be something closer to "All Gold members will always have free access to every power that we create." It's effectively the same in intent, but doesn't mean that the Silver members have access to all powers without needing to purchase them. Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, this is already true. Silver members can not use the Swinging or Tunnelling travel powers without purchasing them. Those don't seem to be merely a reskinning.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 5, 2011 11:11:34 GMT -5
They've reclarified this more than a few times that they view travel powers differently from combat powers so it would definitely have to be a case of them backtracking on their word not to sell individual powers/power sets. I can just imagine what would happen if they decided to an about face on that...
I know a few people who would just unsub and buy the powers their interested in since no matter how many characters they make they only use powers from a few of the classes anyway.
Every way these suggestions are made amounts to more for less for the player which isn't exactly in the best interest of Cryptic as a business.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 11:31:10 GMT -5
Also consider this: Selling individual powers is a form of "Pay to Win". Cryptic hasn't ever been that way even when City of Heroes was their pet project and I highly doubt they'd start doing that now.
Also did you just compare an MMO to a single player console game? ಠ_ಠ
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 5, 2011 11:40:15 GMT -5
Also consider this: Selling individual powers is a form of "Pay to Win". Yep. Another thing to factor in is what happens when you buy a powerful ability (say Ego Storm or Dragon's Wrath currently) and then it gets radically altered and/or nerfed later to the point where it's not the power you paid for. Yeah...that's an interesting can of worms right there. I'm not sure how something like that could be handled.
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Post by koralis on Aug 5, 2011 12:35:38 GMT -5
Also consider this: Selling individual powers is a form of "Pay to Win". Cryptic hasn't ever been that way even when City of Heroes was their pet project and I highly doubt they'd start doing that now. If all gold members have access to all of the powers, then not for the bulk of their player base. They're already doing a Pay-To-Win with silvers... it's simply groups of powers instead of an individual power. I fail to see the distinction really. They already do this with free respecs on Gold, right? They could refund your account and let you either rebuy it, or use the credits for something else. I don't do console games, I do PC games, but yes. I set aside $x to entertain myself. The money is fungible. I can spend it on a stand-alone game or a subscription. Buying a series of stand-alone games provides a wider variety of experiances. Since I mostly play solo anyway, the MMO part isn't exactly worth extra to me. But if Cryptic doesn't think it's good for them I'm ok with that too. I'll play for a month or so for $0 until I get bored and move on, putting the saved money into a single-player game or buying a DDO adventure pack.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 12:52:05 GMT -5
If all gold members have access to all of the powers, then not for the bulk of their player base. They're already doing a Pay-To-Win with silvers... it's simply groups of powers instead of an individual power. I fail to see the distinction really. You're sadly mistaken if you're claiming that Golds/Lifers are pay to win packages against Silvers. Why must everyone pit the subscribers against the free players with arguments like that? ATs can and do compete well against freeform characters in both PvP and PvE. Ever seen a Savage tank the giant fire gorilla on Monster Island? It's outstanding to watch and Behemoths can do it too with roughly the same degree of difficulty. Blades and Glaciers can curbstomp a freeform build if played right in the Hero Games.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 5, 2011 13:19:25 GMT -5
If all gold members have access to all of the powers, then not for the bulk of their player base. They're already doing a Pay-To-Win with silvers... it's simply groups of powers instead of an individual power. I fail to see the distinction really. This raises 2 issues. 1) The bulk of the players are silvers so this would really boil down to the silvers that pay for individual powers versus those that use ATs, thus creating a pay-to-win in the current setup. 2) The silvers, by virtue of having the AT model, are not in a pay-to-win situation with golds since they do not have to compete against freeform characters except by clear choice. If you want to say ATs are pay to win then you're misinformed. The most impressive things I've seen in this game regarding performance of ATs have been through the free ATs they released. Absent that detail each of the paid ATs released so far has a free AT that absolutely crushes it in a head to head. The difference (besides the fact that free respecs are few and far between since F2P launched) is that this is involving real money spent on a purchased product. A gold (other than LTSers) knowingly rents access to the game so something changing is no big deal. They already lose everything if their sub lapses anyway. A silver buying a power is doing just that, buying it. That's real world money spent on something that may not be what you purchased a month from now. Getting an artificial refund on an actual purchase doesn't fly...esepcially with as frequently these proposed purchased items are subject to change here. This opens a floodgate for claims of bait and switching and the like when someone buys a power the day before that power gets drastically changed. Also, every credit refund is potential revenue lost and this proposal increases this refund idea exponentially when power revisions and the frequency thereof are taken into account.
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Post by koralis on Aug 5, 2011 13:41:45 GMT -5
If all gold members have access to all of the powers, then not for the bulk of their player base. They're already doing a Pay-To-Win with silvers... it's simply groups of powers instead of an individual power. I fail to see the distinction really. You're sadly mistaken if you're claiming that Golds/Lifers are pay to win packages against Silvers. Why must everyone pit the subscribers against the free players with arguments like that? Re-read what I wrote. Some Archetypes are free. Others cost money. If you want to play PowerX as a silver and it's not a free one, you need to pay for it. Pay-To-Win by your definition. How is buying a whole group of powers different from buying powers individually?
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Post by PoochieHellhound on Aug 5, 2011 14:00:47 GMT -5
You're sadly mistaken if you're claiming that Golds/Lifers are pay to win packages against Silvers. Why must everyone pit the subscribers against the free players with arguments like that? Re-read what I wrote. Some Archetypes are free. Others cost money. If you want to play PowerX as a silver and it's not a free one, you need to pay for it. Pay-To-Win by your definition. How is buying a whole group of powers different from buying powers individually? Because the groups of powers and tailored to be balanced across the board - even by the free ATs. By allowing Silvers to tailor their builds, they can make builds that vastly overpowers the other ATs, at which point you have paid to win.
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Post by scrizz on Aug 8, 2011 23:50:40 GMT -5
Because the groups of powers and tailored to be balanced across the board - even by the free ATs. By allowing Silvers to tailor their builds, they can make builds that vastly overpowers the other ATs, at which point you have paid to win. LOL balanced. that made me laugh thanks.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Aug 9, 2011 5:41:18 GMT -5
Because the groups of powers and tailored to be balanced across the board - even by the free ATs. By allowing Silvers to tailor their builds, they can make builds that vastly overpowers the other ATs, at which point you have paid to win. LOL balanced. that made me laugh thanks. Please qualify this statement. Which one(s) do you think is not balanced?
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