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Post by Lantesh on May 19, 2013 10:43:19 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this, as I don't play STO. I grew up with The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and quite liked them, but never worked up the energy to try STO. So this is such a great point, like we know Cryptic is capable of it, but something just went wrong with Neverwinter. To be fair, it might not be the devs' fault, honestly. Having collaborated with other companies on their IP, I can understand there's more complications. Sometimes, decisions get held up by the other company. It might be more of a Wizards of the Coast problem than Cryptic's, I don't know. But hearing from you that Cryptic is capable of something better, I think maybe. Yeah that definitely has a part in it. I know for STO that nothing can happen in game without approval from CBS. We've been outright told that by the devs on several occasions. Sometimes players have a request they want to see in game but the devs come back and said, "Well we would like to, but CBS said no. Sorry." I don't know how it all works with NW though. Also if you haven't played STO before, I would wait until possibly next weekend to fire it up. The LoR expansion hits this Tuesday, but for something that massive there's going to be queues galore. I also expect bugs and yes, even possibly exploits. Something this large is just going to have issues on launch. No way around it. There's so much in it that we were joking both in game and on the forums that this should be renamed STO:Overhaulin' and all we need now is Chip Foose lol. (Reference if you've never seen that show: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhaulin%27). I'm just hoping that it doesn't suffer like NW has, because I've seen firsthand how much they poured into it. Edit: I just realized that it probably sounds hypocritical of me to be harsh on NW for it's bugs/exploits but then turn around and be all understanding of STO doing a major release with the possibility of also having bugs/exploits. I...don't really have an answer to be honest. I guess just after seeing what they did and talking to several of the devs I just want it to succeed and not end up like NW is. I guess I'm just a STO fanboy.
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Post by Lantesh on May 19, 2013 17:44:43 GMT -5
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Post by not1stepbackwards on May 20, 2013 4:20:23 GMT -5
I find it so interesting that it's likely the problem lies in the collaboration. It's not Cryptic's fault, it's not WotC's fault, but together, something didn't gel. Another influence is Perfect World. Again, I don't think they're being malicious, but sometimes Chinese business practices don't gel with American ones. Cultural issues, legal issues, communication issues...even timezone issues. I mean, even we have problems coordinating timezones for playing together. With all these elements, I'm as surprised that Neverwinter even came together, as I am that I'm not crazy for it. I'm so amazed at just how uninterested I am. Edit: I just realized that it probably sounds hypocritical of me to be harsh on NW for it's bugs/exploits but then turn around and be all understanding of STO doing a major release with the possibility of also having bugs/exploits. I...don't really have an answer to be honest. I guess just after seeing what they did and talking to several of the devs I just want it to succeed and not end up like NW is. I guess I'm just a STO fanboy. On the broader issue, and to your credit, IMHO that's not a problem. I think the broader issue is how lackluster NW really proved. Let me demonstrate with a thought exercise I just did, pls join me: --- What is another big IP fantasy RPG, recent, that was full of bugs? SKYRIM. And people loved it, despite the bugs. (In fact, they learned to love the bugs, like putting pots on NPCs heads.) People youtubed the bugs, not as criticisms, but as them having fun. --- I know it may be apples vs. oranges, but we look at the whole game. Skyrim had many flaws, but I look back at it with affection for sure. This STO expansion, for whatever reason, looks like a good experience. NW, for whatever reason, I'm like "what did I just play? I dunno." So I don't think you're being a hypocrite, but thanks for self-monitoring. --- My problem is, let's say they fix these exploits (and they absolutely have to, for many reasons). Let's say they do it very well. Will that make NW into a good game? I doubt it. And that's the real tragedy here, IMHO. Also I completely sympathise with Trailturtle. He showed up, beyond the line of duty. And he's going to be flamed, tainted, for trying to help. --- UPDATE! MMO Grinder, minor Internet celebrity and reviewer of Free-To-Play MMOs, just did a review on NW: www.blisteredthumbs.net/2013/05/mmo-grinder-ep43/Why listen to him? He really tries out each free MMO so he accumulated a lot of different perspectives, interesting take. If you just want to have something to laugh at, skip to halfway when he describes the NW Community. He's so spot on. But here's a summary: The Good: ergonomic gameplay (convenient buttons), Foundry The Bad: the non-RP community, lack of customization (One thing I loved was how surprised he was at the lack of customization for a Cryptic game, and cites CO.)
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Post by Lantesh on May 20, 2013 11:26:16 GMT -5
So I don't think you're being a hypocrite, but thanks for self-monitoring. Well when you put it that way it makes sense lol. I'll have to listen to that review later on. In all honesty though, I feel like NW is a PWE game and not a Cryptic one. Edit: Looks like the ended up doing a server wide rollback. 7 hours to be exact. Probably a good idea since the economy was going to be messed up beyond belief. Last word is that they're putting together some sort of care package for everyone as compensation for the rollback. Good on them.
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Rykage
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Post by Rykage on May 30, 2013 1:25:56 GMT -5
It barely took a week after Open Beta, but it's a pretty well known secret now that NW completely failed. Almost everyone who purchased founder's packs are demanding their money back, they're losing players over the exploits, the community isn't what you'd expect from a D&D game, and the gameplay is just so uninteresting.
I went from being very very excited for the game, to apathetic in a span of 2-3 days. I don't know about PWE, but in my book, that counts as a massive failure.
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Rafahil
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Post by Rafahil on May 30, 2013 8:38:43 GMT -5
Wowzers.
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Post by martoon on Jun 4, 2013 15:30:59 GMT -5
It barely took a week after Open Beta, but it's a pretty well known secret now that NW completely failed. Almost everyone who purchased founder's packs are demanding their money back, they're losing players over the exploits, the community isn't what you'd expect from a D&D game, and the gameplay is just so uninteresting. I went from being very very excited for the game, to apathetic in a span of 2-3 days. I don't know about PWE, but in my book, that counts as a massive failure. I feel exactly the oposite the more I play the more I like it. I admit it does not feel D&D or at least in the way other D&D games (Baldurs, Icewind, Neverwinter, D&D online), but if you ignore that fact the combat mechanic is very good.
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Post by evincarzed on Jun 4, 2013 19:14:01 GMT -5
Uninstalled it. Reached lvl 59, tryed really hard to like it. couldnt be able to do it tough. As said above, i went from thrilled to bored in days. wont be reinstalling it anytime soon.
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jun 5, 2013 4:40:43 GMT -5
I feel exactly the oposite the more I play the more I like it. I admit it does not feel D&D or at least in the way other D&D games (Baldurs, Icewind, Neverwinter, D&D online), but if you ignore that fact the combat mechanic is very good. 1st, I appreciate your positive perspective. We've been very negative, and you provide a good counterpoint. It turns out I was okay with NW's look & feel, even though it's different. I also think they got the lore right. My problem was actually with the combat mechanics/gameplay. It just felt so dull to me somehow. And just as I've returned to CO, I've been playing DCUO as well, max leveled a new toon last night. And that's the strange part. Neverwinter...this title I've been looking forward to, that I've long had ties with the setting, I wanted to see a new take on it...I got bored with. DCUO, already out a few years, I'm more of a Marvel fan than DC, I totally did not feel bored leveling. The pacing of both are very similar, 30 minutes per level, about 1 hour per story arc, punch-counterpunch-roll away gameplay. It's hard even for me to figure out why I like one over the other. I want to be able to like Neverwinter. I want it to succeed! I just can't bear to play i
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Rykage
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Post by Rykage on Jun 5, 2013 6:24:26 GMT -5
And that's the strange part. Neverwinter...this title I've been looking forward to, that I've long had ties with the setting, I wanted to see a new take on it...I got bored with. DCUO, already out a few years, I'm more of a Marvel fan than DC, I totally did not feel bored leveling. The pacing of both are very similar, 30 minutes per level, about 1 hour per story arc, punch-counterpunch-roll away gameplay. It's hard even for me to figure out why I like one over the other. Would it have something to do with the absolutely stupid and awful design decision of locking your character while attacking, thus reducing every ranged fight to 2 ranged attacks, then a melee to the death, due to lack of kite-ability?
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Post by Meegatron on Jun 5, 2013 6:59:18 GMT -5
1 - Completely unneeded locking character in place while attacking. It isn't an engine thing, you can attack while moving in CO and STO. So why this lock is in NW? This isn't a real "action" MMO with this feature, it breaks fight for every class including melee. Kiting is possible only with dodges with shift key, but no ranged class has enough stamina for it. Bad design. 2 - This is the only game where character is less powerful with level when compared to mobs. It's because of totally broken way how mobs are scaling with player level - an "easy" (this is this encounter rank in the Foundry) pack of 6 zombies is a complete cakewalk at 15 level but exactly the same mobs can tear down 60 lvl character in a few seconds. The reason is - mobs full stats and abilities are unlocked after 30 level, but not gradually. I'm not sure who was that brilliant but it makes for very tedious late game and makes people leaving NW. It's almost like NW was a churn game made on purpose. 3 - No support for Foundry. There are bugs with interface and sounds (you can't have missions with working sounds atm), you can't build NPC costumes fully (a lot of parts are locked in a way that doesn't make any sense - you can customise facial hair in character creation, but not in Foundry NPC creation... You can't also set back accesories like wings, quivers, nothing.). Completely broken rating system for Foundry missions and broken review window. No rewards for playing Foundry missions, so most players don't bother. 4 - Raging exploits and no game balance. One fighter class being broken, another one being unneeded in groups because of broken (too high) heal aggro making tanking difficult to the point when few people bother wit it. Problems with unlimited stacked buffs and debuffs in PvE, breaking game balance even more. No balance in PvP but the biggest offender is not Trickster Rogue with its damage output, but Control Wizard - class is able ranged DPS with control powers impossible to repel because game has no things like CC resistance or diminishing effects on CC powers. Either Cryptic will change many things or this game is incoming trainwreck. It already looks like going CO route. Edit: 5 - This isn't a D&D game. I never was a big fan of 4th ed but I know it good enough to be sure that NOTHING in NW mechanic is even remotely close to PnP game. I'm sure that no stat or action is calculated as it's in D&D, what we are playing is a version of CO covered with new names and textures. Except CO combat is far more enjoyable even when playing AT. 6 - No character customisation. Sliders for face and body are doing even less than in STO, heck, you don't even have height slider. My best bet is, it's because all race models are in reality the same model but with different accesories unlocked, like eyes, tusks, horns or tails for certain races. And Cryptic simply locked sliders for every race. Head morphs may be race specific but that's it. In the end - Legacy of Romulus? Great release, not even because of Romulans but because of KDF (for me). And new free Klingon bird of prey is a nice little shiny. But Neverwinter? It's a "meh", except for Foundry.
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jun 5, 2013 11:06:58 GMT -5
Would it have something to do with the absolutely stupid and awful design decision of locking your character while attacking, thus reducing every ranged fight to 2 ranged attacks, then a melee to the death, due to lack of kite-ability? I hear ya and that's a smart line of thought, but it turns out I ended up playing a Trickster Rogue. I even quite liked the character that I had. In CO, that's always been what drew me back, the characters. It's a mystery.
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Post by martoon on Jun 5, 2013 14:12:10 GMT -5
I think that what you are disliking is the fact that it is not a RPG but an hybrid game. I prefer myself RPG but I do not dislike these hybrids. In the RPG world CO's speed, action and versatility have no match in another RPG. To experience something with more action devs change the concept to hybrid RPG/Action games like DCUO or NW, but keeping the RPG combat mechanic essence CO is the best.
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Post by Meegatron on Jun 6, 2013 17:01:22 GMT -5
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jun 13, 2013 20:08:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I might give NW another try. I might play for only 20 minutes, but I'll try.
I meant to respond to Minerva's point earlier, because I think it strikes a chord.
Yes, I think my problem is that it's a Hybrid. However, it's not because it's Action/RPG.
It's because it's a Hybrid without its own angle. It tried to be mainstream but ended up generic.
Let's take CO/DCUO for example.
CO is an action/RPG, but with an incredible character creator in terms of powers and design.
DCUO is an action/RPG, but it is like living in Batman: the Animated Series for me.
Now, that's just me, but it has that angle, that hook, that draws me personally back.
NW did have a Forgotten Realms angle, but maybe it's just not strong enough.
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