sprime
Sidekick
*Kirbish* Poyo! */Kirbish*
Posts: 39
|
Post by sprime on Feb 16, 2011 14:13:13 GMT -5
I would appreciate not being dragged into this conversation... That being said, I've made no secret of my thoughts regarding Defensive Combo, in that it is not necessary to tank successfully; but that one CAN obtain favorable results with Defensive Combo. As far as I'm concerned, the tanking game resolves around Crippling Challenge, Challenging Strikes and damage in that order (PRE and the Protector role also plays a role to a certain extent), which does not exclude the fact that it is very possible that threat would do just as well. I won't get into details, though the following thread forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=123942 explains more or less the mechanic behind threat generation and its relationship to Defensive Combo. The main reason I believe Defensive Combo is suddenly considered (perhaps falsely) as the king of aggro generation, is simply because they strapped Crippling Challenge on it during Free-For-All. If you are constantly spamming Defensive Combo, of course you'll be maintaining aggro, since you'll be taunting with Crippling Challenge every four seconds; which is just as easily achieved by applying Crippling Challenge, Challenging Strikes and DPS diligently. That being said, no, I do not claim to be in the right; I am merely stating what worked for me. And others have stated numerous times that they did just as well with Defensive Combo, which is OK. The link to the new thread is right below this line, as well as being available on this very forum in the Guide section.
|
|
|
Post by PoochieHellhound on Feb 16, 2011 14:18:56 GMT -5
Sorry, SPrime, you will have troubles staying out of conversations about Behemoth Anyway, I always got the impression that CC/CS causes more threat than damage alone could ever. I always got the impression that Behemoth is a very good Archetype. But I don't have any personal experience in any of the matters, so I wouldn't know.
|
|
|
Post by something on Feb 16, 2011 15:41:10 GMT -5
DC is relevant though as anyone wanting to tank with a Behemoth needs it. that is true, but why is it true? because Behemoth is a crappy build defiant with no enrange.. hay and uc choose one.. else he could tank well without dc, and also doing decent amount of damage. I would appreciate not being dragged into this conversation... sorry to drag you in.. but i don't have free form, so can't really test them myself..
|
|
|
Post by bladefist on Feb 16, 2011 15:53:55 GMT -5
DC is relevant though as anyone wanting to tank with a Behemoth needs it. that is true, but why is it true? because Behemoth is a crappy build defiant with no enrange.. hay and uc choose one.. else he could tank well without dc, and also doing decent amount of damage. I would appreciate not being dragged into this conversation... sorry to drag you in.. but i don't have free form, so can't really test them myself.. The Behemoth is a crappy archetype because it has/uses Defensive Combo? If it bothers you THAT much then just don't play a Behemoth.
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Feb 16, 2011 15:57:30 GMT -5
Sorry, SPrime, you will have troubles staying out of conversations about Behemoth Anyway, I always got the impression that CC/CS causes more threat than damage alone could ever. I always got the impression that Behemoth is a very good Archetype. But I don't have any personal experience in any of the matters, so I wouldn't know. It does. I just Tanked the entirety of a Mega Destroid Open Mission on my toon Arctic Flare. He's REC/END with some PRE for Thermal reverb. I was half playing the mission and half testing threat. Guardian Role, under 100 PRE, Regen as a passive and I spammed the only threat generating move he has, Ice Blast with CC. He held aggro for over 20 minutes (the entirety of the encounter). There were two other DPSers at the same level who were in Protector role and still doing loads more damage than I was, and they couldn't pull the aggro away.
|
|
|
Post by something on Feb 16, 2011 16:25:57 GMT -5
Sorry, SPrime, you will have troubles staying out of conversations about Behemoth Anyway, I always got the impression that CC/CS causes more threat than damage alone could ever. I always got the impression that Behemoth is a very good Archetype. But I don't have any personal experience in any of the matters, so I wouldn't know. It does. I just Tanked the entirety of a Mega Destroid Open Mission on my toon Arctic Flare. He's REC/END with some PRE for Thermal reverb. I was half playing the mission and half testing threat. Guardian Role, under 100 PRE, Regen as a passive and I spammed the only threat generating move he has, Ice Blast with CC. He held aggro for over 20 minutes (the entirety of the encounter). There were two other DPSers at the same level who were in Protector role and still doing loads more damage than I was, and they couldn't pull the aggro away. so by your theory any prime might set build with out DC cannot tank? everyone must have dc to have enough agro? that is true, but why is it true? because Behemoth is a crappy build defiant with no enrange.. hay and uc choose one.. else he could tank well without dc, and also doing decent amount of damage. sorry to drag you in.. but i don't have free form, so can't really test them myself.. The Behemoth is a crappy archetype because it has/uses Defensive Combo? If it bothers you THAT much then just don't play a Behemoth. not because it have dc, but because it have no enrage.. nor do you get hay+uc combo which give two stack of enrange. dc isn't much useful anywayz so could be replace with something way better..
|
|
|
Post by Roxstar on Feb 16, 2011 16:29:33 GMT -5
DC is relevant though as anyone wanting to tank with a Behemoth needs it. that is true, but why is it true? because Behemoth is a crappy build defiant with no enrange.. hay and uc choose one.. else he could tank well without dc, and also doing decent amount of damage. Why do I get the feeling like what I am saying is going in one ear and out the other? I have been tanking in CO since beta. While it is true that threat was very wonky back in the day it has been reworked. Especially since F2P, the changes with challenging strikes make a HUGE difference. Let me make this simple... Agro Long Ago: Damage > Threat Agro Now: Threat > Damage
|
|
|
Post by Roxstar on Feb 16, 2011 16:32:06 GMT -5
so by your theory any prime might set build with out DC cannot tank? everyone must have dc to have enough agro? Heh, no. BUT, for a Behemoth build that specifically uses Might DC is a good choice. There are other ways to tank using other Crippling Challenging powers but for the sake of THIS archetype DC works fine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 16:33:15 GMT -5
You're wanting Enrage so you can get the advantage that adds a self heal, which just isn't a necessity, and to increase your damage output?
Archetypes aren't meant to be able to solo content/do everything as efficiently as free-form characters. That's something we Silver members are just gonna have to get used to.
|
|
|
Post by something on Feb 16, 2011 16:42:14 GMT -5
You're wanting Enrage so you can get the advantage that adds a self heal, which just isn't a necessity, and to increase your damage output? Archetypes aren't meant to be able to solo content/do everything as efficiently as free-form characters. That's something we Silver members are just gonna have to get used to. the key is that enrage make you grow on each stack.. sigh... XD ok ok i confess.. this is the real point =P i mean without growth might set doesn't look very interesting.. p.s. the thing is all AT are team build, none of them are really design to solo.. which isn't true in most of the game play.. atleast i solo 95% of the times..sigh...
|
|
|
Post by Roxstar on Feb 16, 2011 16:58:45 GMT -5
Let's look at this another way. You could use these four powers in Might for the threat added by Crippling Challenge: Beatdown, Defensive Combo, Mighty Leap, Hurl, or Iron Chain. Now let's compare these at Rank 1 with the CC advantage. BeatdownEnergy: 9.7 Damage: 146 per 0.5 sec Threat: 400 per 0.5 sec Defensive ComboEnergy: 8 Damage: 130 per 0.5 sec Threat: 692 per 0.5 sec Mighty LeapEnergy: 19 Damage: 125 per 3 sec Threat: 400 per 3 sec HurlEnergy: 15 Damage: 130 per 0.5 sec Threat: 400 per 0.5 sec Iron ChainEnergy: 11 Damage: 154 per 0.67 sec Threat: 400 per 0.67 sec Behemoth gets Mighty Leap for ranged and Defensive Combo for Melee. Honestly with those two together there should be absolutely no problems keeping agro. Mighty Leap gets you into range and has better utility than Hurl or Iron Chain does. Defensive Combo is honestly the best threat builder in the Might powerset. It's the cheapest and one of the quickest which makes it easily spammable. It also adds threat just shy of double the threat of all the rest of these. Why would you want anything else? Fly in with Mighty Leap and beat someone down all the while maintaining your defiant! stacks. What on earth makes this such a crappy build? If you want a damage melee AT buy the Savage but even still if you're not going the tank route the Behemoth does a significant amount of damage.
|
|
|
Post by bladefist on Feb 16, 2011 19:45:41 GMT -5
the key is that enrage make you grow on each stack.. sigh... XD ok ok i confess.. this is the real point =P i mean without growth might set doesn't look very interesting.. You got Roxstar doing math to prove how Defensive Combo is a huge threat builder...all because your character "doesn't look very interesting" without Enrage?
|
|
|
Post by GammaBreaker on Feb 16, 2011 20:00:20 GMT -5
That is not correct. Defensive Combo with Crippling Challenge is your #1 tanking tool. It can be used to keep your Defiant stacks from falling off by punching enemies not currently targeting you (and believe me, they will target you very quickly after you start up with DCombo), or even punching objects like crates between long runs.
More importantly, it will generate truckloads of threat very quickly for a low energy cost. This is what we've been trying to explain for some time now.
I'm unclear as to whether your concerns are about PVP, PVE, or both. The Behemoth is one of the strongest ATs in both scenarios, as it can dish out significant damage, take significant damage, and generate high threat. I'm not sure what more you can ask from it, other than Enrage which is not needed as it can easily be built with Thunderclap and Roomsweeper.
=======
Ahem. Thank you to those that were constructive in this thread, but I feel the thread has outlived its usefulness after being revealed as a veiled reason to want Enrage and referring to one of the stronger and more popular ATs as "Bullcrap." Everyone is welcome to express opinions and desires, but please be clear about them without being bitter.
As such, I feel this thread should be locked so that the thread does not degenerate into a vitriolic mess.
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Feb 17, 2011 10:54:04 GMT -5
It does. I just Tanked the entirety of a Mega Destroid Open Mission on my toon Arctic Flare. He's REC/END with some PRE for Thermal reverb. I was half playing the mission and half testing threat. Guardian Role, under 100 PRE, Regen as a passive and I spammed the only threat generating move he has, Ice Blast with CC. He held aggro for over 20 minutes (the entirety of the encounter). There were two other DPSers at the same level who were in Protector role and still doing loads more damage than I was, and they couldn't pull the aggro away. so by your theory any prime might set build with out DC cannot tank? everyone must have dc to have enough agro? Well, no since I did not post anything close to that. I have, however, posted (briefly and simplistically) how the threat mechanics work and DC can be used if you know how to play the build, understand the threat mechanics and utilize the power.
|
|