|
Post by not1stepbackwards on Apr 19, 2011 12:47:10 GMT -5
Upon logging in, noticed this link to the Devastator...NOW AVAILABLE it said: www.champions-online.com/node/595267What's the community concensus here? I went and looked at the CO-Wiki: www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/The_DevastatorI'm thinking, great timing since the Thor movie is coming out, but also the question 'is this right for me?' I was hoping for something in between the Behemoth (my main) and the Blade (which I toyed with a bit). Basically, I found my Behemoth quite survivable on the most part, but sometimes doesn't deal enough damage in PvP or against high-level mobs, so I'm willing to exchange a bit of defense for better offense. The Savage, I've noticed, is a little like that, but not enough. Thus, I was waiting for this Devastator. I know the Devastator's Heavy Weapon set is still quite new to everyone, so it'll take some actually testing to really try out, but I've noticed some points on the Wiki: 1. His Superstats are Strength & Recovery - I was hoping for Constitution, but oh well. I have noticed my Behemoth had a very low equilibrium point, so in a way, I'm glad for Recovery, but now I'm really concerned about the Devastator's survivability. 2. He is a Brawler type - Well, I noticed the Blade, which I toyed with for a few levels, seldom ran out of energy because he is a Brawler. Now, I'm wondering if the Recovery Superstat is just unnecessary. 3. He seems to have only 1 Defensive Power - Guard at level 14. He doesn't have Dexterity for Dodge and Avoidance. Now, I'm even more concerned about his survivability. Putting these together, Devastator seems to be a paper tiger, even moreso than a Blade. He seems to have some knockback attacks, which makes me think he'll be awesome in PvP, where you constantly keep your opponent off-guard and defeat him with high damage fast, but lousy against PvE super villains. Your thoughts? Really looking forward to the Guide on this, as it's a new Power Set, I can't research based on existing info.
|
|
|
Post by speedknob on Apr 19, 2011 13:10:00 GMT -5
I have only dabbled with the powerset in the PTS very briefly, but long enough to get the impression that this will be one serious power framework.
I have already gone to 40 with might, single blade and dual blade, and thought I needed to focus on some ranged toons, but I am very excited about this set and am looking forward to running another melee toon.
I have not seen the powers that the Devestator has, but the framework will have some synergy with fire powers. This may be why the superstats are not what you expected.
|
|
|
Post by supercollide on Apr 20, 2011 8:16:09 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to try Heavy Weapons out Especially if there's a costume item of a MASSIVE sword - as in full on JRPG Massive sword style! [EDIT - www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/Heavy_Weapon_Skins ;D ] I'm half hoping for some synergy with celestial to try create a Paladin of sorts.
|
|
|
Post by darkbladex96 on Apr 20, 2011 12:27:27 GMT -5
The devestator's passive unstoppable provides a flat Dmg reduction like invulnerability, just not as much. Also there is an energy gain from unstoppable when you attempt a knock this scales with recovery.
the recovery and unstoppable help offset the power hungry attacks in the heavy weapon set.
the lack of any sort of toggle or active defense or offense is a terrible choice. Dex for dodge wouldnt really help this characters role very much, you need to focus on the melee and extra knock back damage. inertial dampaning field, or agressor would have worked wonders where enrage is.
your concerns are understandable, but with a nice little damage reduction, constant energy gain, and some truely murderous close AoEs and powerhouse attacks with knockback damage you should survive ok.
now here is my concern, it my only one besides what you pointed out.
Decimate and vicious descent are both lunges, with vicious descent being leaps and bounds better. Skewer is not a good power from what ive played. you have to play the field and make enemies line up to get the full worth of the power. you already have arc of ruin which is freaking ridiculous so they should drop decimate(put either agressor or force snap there), put viscous descent where skewer is and have earth splitter as the sole lvl 32 power.
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Apr 20, 2011 12:36:03 GMT -5
The devestator's passive unstoppable provides a flat Dmg reduction like invulnerability, just not as much. To clarify, Unstoppable does not provide an analogue to Invulns damage reduction component at all, it provides an analogue to Invulns damage absorption component which functions completely differently. Even then, it might as well not be mentioned as the damage absorb is beyond small. It is essentially useless for defending against anything that actually poses a threat to your character.
|
|
|
Post by darkbladex96 on Apr 20, 2011 12:38:21 GMT -5
lets not get caught up in semantics >_>, unstoppable stops some dmg through some means. not much but it does it.
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Apr 20, 2011 12:41:33 GMT -5
lets not get caught up in semantics >_>, unstoppable stops some dmg through some means. not much but it does it. It's not semantics, the game mechanics are defined the way they are and function the way they do for a reason. Absorb simply is not reduction in form, function or utility hence the clarification to avoid the confusion for people who know the difference and how they apply to the different situations they shine in separately...
|
|
|
Post by not1stepbackwards on Apr 20, 2011 13:37:58 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. These different perspectives, ranging from the point about Fire powers, to Custume Pieces, to Unstoppable, are all valuable insight.
The Devastator clearly has offense down pat, so I'm focusing now on the defense issue. This is interesting, please tell me more.
What is the difference between damage reduction and damage resistance? I play both a Behemoth and a Glacier (who's catching up fast with Snowstorm), so I do wish to understand Devastator's defense better.
I'm going to also rephrase the question - how good is a Devastator solo-ing against bosses? That's the issue that made me pick Behemoth and Glacier.
My reasoning - against small groups (which is most of the game), any Archetype can handle them pretty well, which is why I didn't pick an Area Effect expert like the Inferno. It's when facing bosses, which are actually a real threat, where the Behemoth and the Glacier have an edge. That's what made me pick them (I benchmark ATs by taking on Kevin Poe to see how they handle).
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Apr 20, 2011 14:00:02 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. These different perspectives, ranging from the point about Fire powers, to Custume Pieces, to Unstoppable, are all valuable insight. The Devastator clearly has offense down pat, so I'm focusing now on the defense issue. This is interesting, please tell me more. What is the difference between damage reduction and damage resistance? I play both a Behemoth and a Glacier (who's catching up fast with Snowstorm), so I do wish to understand Devastator's defense better. I'm going to also rephrase the question - how good is a Devastator solo-ing against bosses? That's the issue that made me pick Behemoth and Glacier. My reasoning - against small groups (which is most of the game), any Archetype can handle them pretty well, which is why I didn't pick an Area Effect expert like the Inferno. It's when facing bosses, which are actually a real threat, where the Behemoth and the Glacier have an edge. That's what made me pick them (I benchmark ATs by taking on Kevin Poe to see how they handle). Devastator will not be good at soloing bosses. It's passive provides no defense to speak of and it lacks any click defense or heal to help it survive. Regarding how mitigation works.Reduction takes incoming damage and reduces it by a percentage. So if you have 66% damage reduction you're knocking off the damage of an attack by 66% percent. The percent reductions happen ahead of absorption. Absorption takes incoming damage and subtracts a number from it after all other damage reduction have taken place. Using numbers from my main his invuln has a 63% reduction and 145ish point absorb. If a 500 point attack comes in (and I have no other defenses to help) it's cut down by 63% first to be 185 points. The absorb then comes into play and subtracts 145 points off leaving 40 points of damage taken. Unstoppable has only a damage absorb with no reduction to speak of. IIRC at level 40 the absorb is less than 20 points but I'll use 20 as an example. If that same unblocked 500 point attack hits unstoppable with no other defense present 20 points are shaved off. You take 480 points of damage. Where absorb shines is in the fact that it comes after every other mitigation is accounted for. So if you have, for example, a toon that is blocking (200% reduction) with invuln (63% reduction) and then an absorb you can see how that absorb will help in reducing a lot of attacks to down to the minimum damage number. That number being 1 point, all attacks that don't hit shield powers must do 1 point of damage. In a nutshell reduction is your upfront defense that shines for bigger hits and when you fail to block, where as absorb (when the absorb number is big enough to matter) shines for smaller hits and when you have other mitigators present to knock the attack down far enough for it to be absorbed (blocks, shields, dodes, etc.). To see this take a defiance toon in the powerhouse, go to the battlestation and fight the purple gang (lots of small fast attacks). Watch how your health steadily falls. Now take the same toon and use Invuln...watch how you last longer as invuln reduces those hits down further(but don't get the energy that defiance grants when you are hit which is the trade off). Post edited to correct my own incompetence.
|
|
|
Post by Dewey on Apr 20, 2011 14:07:35 GMT -5
Just a quick question Kenpo: wouldn't the reduction of 63% actually bring a 500 point attack down to 185, not 315?
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Apr 20, 2011 14:24:52 GMT -5
Just a quick question Kenpo: wouldn't the reduction of 63% actually bring a 500 point attack down to 185, not 315? Probably *Grabs a calculator* Yep, did it backwards in my head like a moron.
|
|
|
Post by not1stepbackwards on Apr 20, 2011 22:00:47 GMT -5
This is the perfect explanation and I have 1 follow-up: Devastator will not be good at soloing bosses. It's passive provides no defense to speak of and it lacks any click defense or heal to help it survive. --- Using numbers from my main his invuln has a 63% reduction and 145ish point absorb. If a 500 point attack comes in (and I have no other defenses to help) it's cut down by 63% first to be 185 points. The absorb then comes into play and subtracts 145 points off leaving 40 points of damage taken. Unstoppable has only a damage absorb with no reduction to speak of. IIRC at level 40 the absorb is less than 20 points but I'll use 20 as an example. If that same unblocked 500 point attack hits unstoppable with no other defense present 20 points are shaved off. You take 480 points of damage. It's time for me to reveal MY age. I've played a lot of RPGs, from computer games to a few MMORPGs, but the lion's share is on Pencil & Paper (yeah, I'm old). In particular, Dungeons & Dragons (fine, I'll be specific, I'm really old). In D&D, the term " damage reduction" is exactly the " absorption" effect you described. In other words, it's a " flat rate" of say 5 points of damage rather than 5% of damage. The game was invented before this era of calculators and electricity, so it was easier to figure out...just subtract 5 points of damage instead of fiddling with percentages and those fancy Arabic numerals. The result of this "flat rate" defense is, when you fight against low-level opponents (i.e. Goblins), you look awesome because it's like you are invincible to their weak attacks (whereas a percentage reduction has you take some damage still). When fighting high-level opponents, however, it's pretty pointless. And since the only time you are in danger is when you face high-level opponents anyway, this apparently awesome bonus is not so much that.That's what I'm kind of afraid of. To see this take a defiance toon in the powerhouse, go to the battlestation and fight the purple gang (lots of small fast attacks). Watch how your health steadily falls. Now take the same toon and use Invuln...watch how you last longer as invuln reduces those hits down further(but don't get the energy that defiance grants when you are hit which is the trade off). We just had a Blood Moon event. I participated with a Behemoth before, so I just decided to play it again with my Glacier just to compare. Here's what I noticed. Against the zombie hordes, the Behemoth had to fend them off because their sheer numbers just ticked away her health. The Glacier just ignored them, precisely because of that " flat rate" of damage reduction, basically reducing their attacks to 0 damage. When there were other players, I would protect them with a Snowstorm, but otherwise those zombies actually helped me...by recharging my energy meter when I blocked. I actually got a little confused by how Glacier's invulnerability works, but now it's clear. Thanks for taking time to explain it. My follow-up question (you may have already implied your answer earlier) - how vulnerable are most bosses to knock-back? The reason I'm not sure - with the Behemoth, against bosses I use Demolish to wear them down ('cos it's a long fight) rather than Roomsweeper. The Devastator looks like he'll depend on that knock-back effect.
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Apr 21, 2011 6:59:45 GMT -5
We just had a Blood Moon event. I participated with a Behemoth before, so I just decided to play it again with my Glacier just to compare. Here's what I noticed. Against the zombie hordes, the Behemoth had to fend them off because their sheer numbers just ticked away her health. The Glacier just ignored them, precisely because of that " flat rate" of damage reduction, basically reducing their attacks to 0 damage. Yep, that's the Defiance vs Invulnerability at play. Defiance has a much higher reduction percentage than Invuln (approx 96% vs 63%) does but it lacks Invulns absorb in exchange for energy return. So for small hits, Defiance gets whittled down while Invuln laughs it off. For bigger hits the absorb becomes not enough and Defiance shines through due to reducing attacks by a larger percentage. My follow-up question (you may have already implied your answer earlier) - how vulnerable are most bosses to knock-back? The reason I'm not sure - with the Behemoth, against bosses I use Demolish to wear them down ('cos it's a long fight) rather than Roomsweeper. The Devastator looks like he'll depend on that knock-back effect. Real bosses (above master villian) tend be knocked immune so a knock dependent character loses both "crowd control mitigation" (due to enemies not attacking while flying through the air from a knock) and damage (due to fall damage disappearing from the equation). Knock immune targets do take bonus damage from knock powers in an attempt to balance out fall damage going AWOL but I remain unconvinced if it's enough at this point. Sidenote: Master Villians can be knocked but don't take fall damage when they hit the ground. So you don't get the knock immune bonus or the fall damage. Fun right?
|
|
|
Post by tkolter on Apr 21, 2011 7:35:28 GMT -5
What about the visceral pleasure when I play my Behemoth I just LIKE pounding the crappola out of the bad guys, knocking henchmen and villians around and getting physical. I'll even Roomsweep one henchmen even if I'm taking some bigger damage from a villian just for kicks as long as I think I won't die. This character seems to fit the same role save you do it with a big heavy weapon.
I'm sure they would not pass it out and sell it if it was not a viable AT.
|
|
|
Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Apr 21, 2011 7:48:39 GMT -5
What about the visceral pleasure when I play my Behemoth I just LIKE pounding the crappola out of the bad guys, knocking henchmen and villians around and getting physical. I'll even Roomsweep one henchmen even if I'm taking some bigger damage from a villian just for kicks as long as I think I won't die. This character seems to fit the same role save you do it with a big heavy weapon. I'm sure they would not pass it out and sell it if it was not a viable AT. The Behemoth has a defensive passive. You are going to be very survivable. The Devastator has an offensive passive which equals squishy in this game. The Behemoth has a defensive emergency click power (unbreakable) on top of its defensive passive. The Devastator has none. The Behemoth is in protector role for 25% bonus health. The Devastator is in Brawler role so it doesn't have the bonus health. In short they aren't serving the same function. The Devastator is going to put out more damage than your Behemoth at the cost of being far less durable. Your Behemoth will solo things easily by simply lasting longer while the Devastator will not. No one is saying it isn't viable, but it is not as solo friendly as other ATs due to lack of defenses and lack of healing built into the AT. It's not a tank. Now pair a tanking Behemoth that can hold Aggro with a Devastator in a team. Mmmmmmmm delicious carnage.
|
|