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Post by ashen on Dec 17, 2011 19:14:28 GMT -5
Y'all are kidding about it being awesome, right? A melee toon with no lunge, and force snap isn't even close to making up for it. A martial arts melee toon without the awesome damage of dex/ego, or the extra hit points of dex/con being in range of, well, everything that's just gonna plant it. Oh, and a non-EGO based toon that's obviously being geared towards knocks via the force powers and unstoppable. BCR without dodge. The potential to pick the worst hold in the game. REC as a superstat. So much wrong with this AT even though it has dragon's wrath, force geyser, and BCR which are all PvP favorites. It's a demonstration in why you don't just pick good powers, but instead think of how they'll work together. You dont think that Geyser juggling plus DW fueled by FotT/Brawler/Offensive passive will tear through other AT's ?
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Post by silvermistshadow on Dec 17, 2011 20:30:46 GMT -5
Well, I'll be testing this build out with my third character slot. Sounds like it'll be way too much fun. Just have to survive with my current characters until Monday.
Also, how soon can we have a guide up? I mean, if it's already on the PTS, someone could throw it on this forum on Monday.
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Post by Pion on Dec 17, 2011 21:20:42 GMT -5
That is a really good AT, and coincidentally has a Jedi Master feel right around the same time as TOR goes live. Brilliant! edit: Just saw Xavori's post, good points, but although it's not perfect, it's still pretty good.
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Post by nepht on Dec 17, 2011 22:23:12 GMT -5
Its a good AT but they are never going to make an amazing one for the understandable reason that no one would sub for freeform if they did.
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Post by xavori on Dec 18, 2011 2:17:06 GMT -5
Y'all are kidding about it being awesome, right? A melee toon with no lunge, and force snap isn't even close to making up for it. A martial arts melee toon without the awesome damage of dex/ego, or the extra hit points of dex/con being in range of, well, everything that's just gonna plant it. Oh, and a non-EGO based toon that's obviously being geared towards knocks via the force powers and unstoppable. BCR without dodge. The potential to pick the worst hold in the game. REC as a superstat. So much wrong with this AT even though it has dragon's wrath, force geyser, and BCR which are all PvP favorites. It's a demonstration in why you don't just pick good powers, but instead think of how they'll work together. You dont think that Geyser juggling plus DW fueled by FotT/Brawler/Offensive passive will tear through other AT's ? You can't just look at what's right about the build while forgetting that so much else is wrong. Let's start with the stats, DEX & REC. They compete for slotting as they are both primary offensive stats. Right away, you're build is weaker than it could be. What's more, these stats don't help each other. STR/DEX competes for slot as wellas well, but at least they're both part of the martial arts forms. REC...is all about alpha strikes, and this toon doesn't have an alpha. Worse, in the competition between DEX and REC, DEX is beyond obvious. DEX fuels the MA form. It fuels both the energy return and the damage buff per stack. So every point you put into REC instead of DEX hurts your DPS in 3 ways. It lowers your chance of criticals. It lowers the damage buff per stack of focus. It lowers the energy you get back from stacks which means you have to let your EB fire off every few attacks (REC helps with the EB, but getting energy back from dragon's wrath critting beats the hell out of energy back from a swipe of the EB) What this toon needed was DEX/EGO. It's Form of the Tempest which is the critical based form. It has all those ranged knocks, which would have loved to have EGO. Instead it has REC which does absolutely nothing for the build. MA builds have dragon's rush and focus stacks for energy. They most certainly don't need an energy stat. Then let's look at the powers that you're going to actually use in any kind of sequence. The build's only nailed carrier is Force Geyser. Great nailed carrier. Great PvP power. It would definitely have caused havoc....except a 100' nailed carrier doesn't do melee any good, especially a melee toon that cannot lunge. So, fight starts and this wanna-be jedi toon hits force geyser. He even geared heavily to ego to make up for not having it superstatted, but still, the force geyser juggling you're used to just isn't gonna happen. So the target gets up and gets to do something before jedi can hit him again. And that something is gonna be bad news for a toon that has no defense and only mediocre damage. But let's say jedi-wanna-be gets the perfect drop on his opponent. He's actually within 50' so he can start with force snap. His opponent completely fails the knock resists rolls, so he flies, not just repels towards and lands at jedi's feet. Jedi charges up as much dragon wrath as he can and releases as his target starts to stand up. Figure 1.5-2k damage best case. Jedi then hits force geyser, but this is the second knock, and jedi has low ego anyway. Still, might be able to get a full charged wrath in. Against a grimoire or a soldier, that might be it. Anything else, things are about to start going very badly for the jedi. A third knock attack from the second force geyser is nothing but a knock down. And all this is assuming that the target has never gotten any of his own stuff off. There is time to tap dragon's wrath. Now, if the toon was dex/ego, getting three DW's in is likely going to win the fight. But this toon just won't be able to get there in terms of damage. So his enemy will get to fight back, and when he does, this toon has nothing to respond with. Of course, that's best case. More likely in the Hero Game's, he gets eaten up long before he even things about the perfect juggling of an opponent. And even with juggling, that only helps against a single target. It's rare to get that kind of time to kill a target before someone else jumps you. Now, you're prolly thinking Eye of the Storm comes in to play here. The problem is that EotS only works against melee. Ranged toons just kill you. You don't even get to build up your shield while your swords swing. You're also rooted in place. But again, let's say you're fighting a melee toon and you get to where you have to turtle up to let your targets knock resist wear off so you can go back to juggling (you're never going to get time for this...but for the sake of argument...) All it takes to stop you is for a real melee toon with a real lunge to move twenty feet back and lunge in. You will stop EotS, and they will have time to hit you with something. This toon cannot take getting hit at all. Force geyser...dragon's wrath...they're good powers in PvP because they've been made part of entire build that works together. For all practical purposes, this toon is the perfect demonstration of why just cherry picking powers isn't a good idea. Force snap could maybe replace a lunge for a toon that just creams anything in or two shots. This build doesn't Force Geyser is a great nailed carrier except for a melee toon that then has to close the distance manually. And Dragon's Wrath is one of the best single target melee attacks in the game, but to get to the one or two shot kill level this build has to have, it needs different stats, and it's going to need a lot of them. You want my realistic assessment of what's going to happen to this toon in PvP. Nothing. No one is going to play it long enough for it to matter. Scourge, Tempest, and Soldier blow it out of the water in DPS. The Mind will stick in Ego Storm letting anyone kill it. The Glacier and Behemoth are both tanks and have nothing to fear from a mediocre DPS toon. The Glacier even has the added bonus of being able to kite it forever since it can't lunge out of being chilled or caged. Grimoire sigils make it a bad idea for any squishy melee to lunge in which ironically make the lack of a lunge a good thing. The Fist will demonstrate what a real melee build should do in damage. The Master will just point and laugh as the wanna be jedi cannot come close to outhealing dodge fueled BCR.
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kurobasa
Superhero
The Hero's Hero!
Posts: 134
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Post by kurobasa on Dec 18, 2011 3:57:51 GMT -5
Its a good AT but they are never going to make an amazing one for the understandable reason that no one would sub for freeform if they did. Too true a statement right here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2011 7:06:30 GMT -5
No offense but all I got out of that is because it doesn't conform to the traditional min/max sensibilities(ie: it's not a DEX/EGO build) that it will suck. A conclusion based on hypothetical scenarios instead of actual testing. No one is going to play it long enough for it to matter. This has nothing to back it up at all. No, a very biased personal opinion isn't enough to qualify.
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Post by Malchiel on Dec 18, 2011 8:20:01 GMT -5
In AT PvP, there is so much suck anyway. Sure, the AT looks like somebody just rolled a dice and picked random powers out of dual blades+force but most ATs have so many redundant powers and no self healing that just having FG + DW means you can hurt a lot of people to death. And if you can't get into melee range, you can still shoot out FCs with high rec.
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Post by xavori on Dec 18, 2011 13:10:11 GMT -5
No offense but all I got out of that is because it doesn't conform to the traditional min/max sensibilities(ie: it's not a DEX/EGO build) that it will suck. A conclusion based on hypothetical scenarios instead of actual testing. No one is going to play it long enough for it to matter. This has nothing to back it up at all. No, a very biased personal opinion isn't enough to qualify. Want to bet the vast majority of my personal opinions about Champs tend to play out in reality? ;D My complaint isn't that it doesn't meet some min/max potential. If you could actually see all my alts, the fact that none of them are min/maxxed would become very apparent. I build theme toons, and that usually means they're flawed. This new AT isn't simply flawed. It won't work in PvP, not even AT PvP where pretty much every toon is flawed. It might be semi-okay in PvE where the mobs aren't smart enough to run away, but that's it. If it was DEX/EGO, it would be okay. If it had Way of the Warrior instead of Unstoppable (ie gave it some dodge you could buff with dodge gear) it would be okay. If it had Crashing Wave Kick (bet you didn't see that coming) to guarantee its control juggling ability, it would be okay. Any one of those little tweaks turns it from a junk build to a decent AT. As it stands, it has no defense, mediocre damage, no ability to hold range, and low hit points. That's just too many flaws to make up for. p.s. Please don't think I'm being hostile. I love to argue, and love nothing more than someone bringing up some point I didn't think of previously. These kind of arguments, along with playing since beta, are the reason I've gotten to know the game inside out and backwards. I can't think of or remember everything in the game, but by arguing builds, it gives me new ideas and helps me keep on the top of my knowledge. p.p.s. That new idea bit is key. At 65 current alts, I need lots of ideas
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Post by Pion on Dec 18, 2011 16:59:30 GMT -5
But this is clearly a concept toon. For all it's flaws it does have plenty of pluses that will make it handle very well. It won't be a PvP toon, obviously, if only because it doesn't have a lunge, but it'll still handle most anything else pretty well.
The Rec/Dex thing is a problem and shows a lack of foresight, but it's not insurmountable.
It's a Jedi Knight, and honestly, for all the hype, most Jedi Knights simply aren't that good, so the concept is pretty solid.
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Post by ashen on Dec 18, 2011 19:05:46 GMT -5
A 35-40% crit chance, 50% severity, FotT, Brawler, FotT, and an Offensive Passive do not equate to mediocre damage by AT standards IMO.
I agree that teh AT isnt ideal, but dont consider it terrible (by the standards of an AT).
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Post by xavori on Dec 19, 2011 7:47:35 GMT -5
A 35-40% crit chance, 50% severity, FotT, Brawler, FotT, and an Offensive Passive do not equate to mediocre damage by AT standards IMO. I agree that teh AT isnt ideal, but dont consider it terrible (by the standards of an AT). When I look at AT's, I compare them to other AT's. If you look at my previous post, I pointed out specifically that the Tempest, Soldier, and Scourge all blow this thing out of the water in terms of DPS. (as a not surprising side note, this is why I have a Soldier and a Scourge amongst my alts, I like the high-risk high-reward playstyle of squishies) This toon is the very epitome of bad theme build. There is no synergy in anything it does, and in fact, has conflicts in itself. This goes beyond the normal AT shortcoming of redundant powers and into the realm where powers a good power like force geyser actually hurts the must-use force snap because it starts giving the target immunity stacks. And that's not the only place where it happens.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Dec 19, 2011 7:54:40 GMT -5
A 35-40% crit chance, 50% severity, FotT, Brawler, FotT, and an Offensive Passive do not equate to mediocre damage by AT standards IMO. I agree that teh AT isnt ideal, but dont consider it terrible ( by the standards of an AT). Pretty much. As far as AT's go this one is about as awesome as it gets without instantly rendering other ATs irrelevant and non-competitive. That's a thin line to skirt and I think they did a good job staying on that line and maintaining a theme.
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Post by xavori on Dec 19, 2011 8:18:50 GMT -5
Okay, since I've spent so much time trashing Cryptic's NotJedi, here's what I would have done (and ya, I know it breaks tier rules in a couple places, but that's only because there is no laser sword energy builder)
NotJedi/NotSith Role: Brawler 1 Righteous Fists (I'd really prefer a laser sword eb) 1 Laser Sword 6 Super Dexterity 6 Thunderbolt Lunge 8 Quarry 11 Lightning Arc or Empathic Healing 13 Super Intelligence 14 Parry 17 Telekinesis 22 Form of the Tempest 27 Ego Choke or Telekinetic Wave 32 Force Eruption 40 Force Geyser
I picked Quarry for the passive because it's the best offensive jack-of-all trades passive. It also makes DEX/INT really attractive, as does the high cost of Laser Sword. DEX/INT also leaves the primary defense slot open for either dodge gear or CON gear giving players some flexibility in how they want their toon to work.
As a DEX based melee toon, Form of the Tempest becomes a really good choice for a damage toggle. Parry also has good synergy with DEX if you take the Elusive Monk advantage.
Once you get past laser sword, the toon is all kinds of themed utility stuff. The two power choices are aimed at letting it lean dark side or light side (although again, it's totally notjedi / notsith).
The best thing about the toon is flexibility. You can slot dodge gear, take elusive monk, take the Quarry advantage, and sacrifice damage for okay defense. Or, you can say screw monk, go R3 Quarry, slot stat gear, and push your damage output and hope you have enough CON to survive.
You have some ability to juggle control, espec if you go dark and can throw ego choke in between force geysers. TK Wave is a fun power for not only knockback, but really messing with your opponents energy. Telekinesis is all about theme.
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Post by Pion on Dec 19, 2011 11:17:09 GMT -5
Okay, since I've spent so much time trashing Cryptic's NotJedi, here's what I would have done (and ya, I know it breaks tier rules in a couple places, but that's only because there is no laser sword energy builder) NotJedi/NotSith Role: Brawler 1 Righteous Fists (I'd really prefer a laser sword eb) 1 Laser Sword 6 Super Dexterity 6 Thunderbolt Lunge 8 Quarry 11 Lightning Arc or Empathic Healing 13 Super Intelligence 14 Parry 17 Telekinesis 22 Form of the Tempest 27 Ego Choke or Telekinetic Wave 32 Force Eruption 40 Force Geyser I picked Quarry for the passive because it's the best offensive jack-of-all trades passive. It also makes DEX/INT really attractive, as does the high cost of Laser Sword. DEX/INT also leaves the primary defense slot open for either dodge gear or CON gear giving players some flexibility in how they want their toon to work. As a DEX based melee toon, Form of the Tempest becomes a really good choice for a damage toggle. Parry also has good synergy with DEX if you take the Elusive Monk advantage. Once you get past laser sword, the toon is all kinds of themed utility stuff. The two power choices are aimed at letting it lean dark side or light side (although again, it's totally notjedi / notsith). The best thing about the toon is flexibility. You can slot dodge gear, take elusive monk, take the Quarry advantage, and sacrifice damage for okay defense. Or, you can say screw monk, go R3 Quarry, slot stat gear, and push your damage output and hope you have enough CON to survive. You have some ability to juggle control, espec if you go dark and can throw ego choke in between force geysers. TK Wave is a fun power for not only knockback, but really messing with your opponents energy. Telekinesis is all about theme. No fracking way. No way in hell. I saw Laser Sword and knew where you were going with this, went to hit reply with a No, thought better to finish reading your post first, then I came back for the hell no. No way. This makes every other AT fall by the wayside. If they were all built this well, fine, but they're not, and this would abuse every other AT. You're concept is really good, but you made a Jedi Master, not a Knight. I gave my impression on the main boards where I said this: Honestly I think people are underestimating this AT, it has potential. The only real issue I see with it is the Dex/Rec thing for 2 main reasons: 1) Rec is useless as a superstat without End, unless you just get the 80 points and then ignore it with gear which 2) causes your SS average to sharply drop which impacts your damage. So it really just depends on how sharply it impacts your damage, but between FotT, unstop, intensity, root on Harvest, and DW I think it'll be ok. Not great, but ok.
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