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Post by supercollide on Feb 8, 2012 7:00:54 GMT -5
They'd be squarely shooting themselves in the foot if they totally abandoned Gold subs for individually bought slots (unless they did something really radical to the current ATs, premium ATs, freeform and c-store as a whole).
Just some basic thoughts on freeform slot pricing, which has been done to the death of the thread in other areas but I feel it's worth bring up here mostly as someone's asked. Apologies in advance if this then causes the thread to meltdown.
Be aware that this is the rough working of someone who's just interested in this and has gold subs for the next 8 months already sorted. So that said I have no agenda here as 'I'm currently alright jack and should be for a good while yet'.
Rough guestimates on the 'value' of 1 freeform slot The price of a premium AT roughly works out at £9.20 (Based on 920CP) The price of a Lifetime Subs is roughly £200.00 one Freeform Slot would need to be significantly higher that the price of a Premium AT as otherwise who would ever buy a premium AT when they could build a better one for not much more. (not to mention churn/fallout from those who have already purchased premium ATs) Comparing 1 freeform slot to the Lifetime Sub then the general flow of opinion seems that LTS would be very roughly equal to 8 freeform slots (and yes there's a whole load of bonuses that come with the bulk purchase). That's just an opinion of value but as far as I'm concerned it works for rough workings. So £200.00 / 8 = £25.00 or roughly 2500CP. It's my personal guess that they wouldn't charge any more for it than that and that's actually what I was aiming for with this maths, a decent guess as to the top end of the price bracket.
So there we are rough guestimate would be a CP cost between 1000 and 2500.
The bods at PW/Cryptic need to balance the potential churn/outcry from silvers with Premium ATs and potential negative press via forum rage from upset LTS members as well if the price is too low against making it attractively priced enough so folks actually buy it. Good luck to whoever makes that call, I really wouldn't want to.
It seems that the 3 pack become device bundles still appear to sell at about 2800CP so making a totally haphazard personal guess I'd say that it'd be nearer the top end of that guestimate.
Personally I've come around to the FF slot as a good idea for retaining silver players and getting them to invest in the game but I also feel that if PW/Cryptic are worried about churn from Gold subbers then throwing them a bone to make gold a little more attractive wouldn't be a bad idea either.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 9:14:49 GMT -5
To me, this topic deserves only an economical point of view, nothing more. To the company, any move is towards generating revenue.
Otherwise, just by looking at the voices of opposition in the main forums, we are losing sight of the point to it, and letting personal feelings cloud judgement.
To summarise, so far we have some who says F2P was never feasible in the first place and P2P is the solution, wishing the current state of lacklustre C-store sales to remain stagnant as it is because micro-transactions is also not a solution, some who claims their group is the sole supporter of the game financially, some in the same group threathening to end and refusing to pay more until more value is added to their subscription, and some in another group who whines about not getting enough for money already spent.
Indeed it's hard to see with such ardent supporters, why does the game need more money than it's already getting?
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Feb 8, 2012 9:34:40 GMT -5
To me, this topic deserves only an economical point of view, nothing more. To the company, any move is towards generating revenue. Otherwise, just by looking at the voices of opposition in the main forums, we are losing sight of the point to it, and letting personal feelings cloud judgement. I agree. Nearly all of the opposition I've read comes from a "I feel slighted" standpoint (which, to be frank, means jack all for the future of the game) and very little of the opposing arguments have posted even a single detail about why it would be bad for the game, or for Cryptic/PW.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 19:33:52 GMT -5
I agree. Nearly all of the opposition I've read comes from a "I feel slighted" standpoint (which, to be frank, means jack all for the future of the game) and very little of the opposing arguments have posted even a single detail about why it would be bad for the game, or for Cryptic/PW. And therein lies the problem, especially with LTS and Gold. They don't necessarily need to invest more money (or pay more than they are paying currently) when game value is increased, and hence take for granted any value-add should mean their LTS/subscription worth be increased as well. This blinds them to see even if a game change increases the perceived value of the game itself to everyone else, even if that group is CO's target consumers.
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Post by scorcherofthorns on Feb 8, 2012 20:01:19 GMT -5
And what if the opposition is actually right, is that even in consideration, or is the whole analysis based solely on the assumption that people are just plain wrong with the whole thing? But then people can be wrong very easily, crowds are seldom ever committed to anything other than compulsiveness, and strong tendencies to overlook the facts at work, the past and present, and more importantly the prospects for the future. The objective of every company is to lure clients in, sell them stuff and make them buy some more, for it to work they need to beat the competition, and that is usually done by either giving more for the money spend, or giving higher quality material, and not without some serious advertising to help spread the word, but the word that is worth more is the “word of mouth” that can only be achieved by beating the odds and satisfying the community.
I understand those who are in disagreement with the freeform slot, yet I can’t help but to disagree with them, I think the freeform slot is absolutely crucial to complete the Silver players gaming experience, this, I think, will allow Silvers to participate in PVP events that weren’t available to them, and to play the game on equal grounds to the rest of the community. Is the people who are upset with the game, who have stopped spending money on it, doing it because they hate the game and therefore there is nothing that can be done in CO to reconcile the game with its community? I find that hard to believe, in my times playing online games, good games always prevail, bad games usually die, and to be honest I don’t see CO doing much to attract the crowds in the numbers they need and when you take into consideration that CO is no longer the only F2P game of the genre, and that in fact the WHOLE genre have already gone F2P, then you understand the gravity of the situation.
Granted, correcting the numerous bugs the game had when I first joined in was amazing, the Hideouts were also amazing, yet there is so much to be desired, the game just doesn’t feel it have enough to justify a subscription and the Silvers accounts are so underpowered it doesn’t truly invite to spend any money on it, or at least that’s what I got from almost everyone one I tried to talk into playing and staying in the game.
I just don’t know why people still think this game is about subscriptions, isn’t the name “Champions Online Free for ALL” sufficient clue as to what the real target is? They are trying to boost Silver accounts, so to persuade more people to come join us without the compromise of monthly payments and by giving them the option to play on equal grounds as any, So Silvers can now spend on the game knowing it’s worth doing so because they aren’t wasting their money on a “trial.”
That’s what the incoming freeform slot means to the game and that’s what I think so far, and I think the devs are on the right track, in fact, it’s a surprise to me it took them that long to figure it out.
I agree with some of the stuff Supercollide said, and also with you and kenpo.
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Post by nepht on Feb 8, 2012 22:30:26 GMT -5
To me, this topic deserves only an economical point of view, nothing more. To the company, any move is towards generating revenue. Otherwise, just by looking at the voices of opposition in the main forums, we are losing sight of the point to it, and letting personal feelings cloud judgement. I agree. Nearly all of the opposition I've read comes from a "I feel slighted" standpoint (which, to be frank, means jack all for the future of the game) and very little of the opposing arguments have posted even a single detail about why it would be bad for the game, or for Cryptic/PW. Indeed it will bring a raft of new players . I still feel slighted . Good for the game bad for me and a few others ...but really still good for us .. going closer to a PWI style market is good for revenue dont think anyone is gonna argue that PWE dont know ftp they dominate ftp...almost.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 22:51:11 GMT -5
It happens to everything. A year ago, I bought my Sony Ericsson Xperia Arc for $900, 6 months later they beefed up the CPU. Now less than a year, the souped up version sells for $90.
I still love my phone.
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Post by Rykage on Feb 9, 2012 9:17:01 GMT -5
I don't even see what all the fuss is about. You'll still have to buy the Freeform slot (and it's gotta be optional, if you don't like Freeforms, don't buy it?), it will definitely be more expensive than a character slot or premium AT, and the silvers will still not get -any- other benefits that subscribers do.
Silver Player who buys ONE Freeform slot, roughly the value of a one month sub. - 15$ or more.
- Gets ONE Freeform slot, quite possibly limited to only the powersets available/purchased. - Gets -NOTHING- else.
Gold player, who continues monthly sub. - 15$
- Gets Freeform for ALL slots. - Gets All premium AT's for free. - Gets -most- costume sets for free. - Gets Retcon at 40. - Gets extra character slot each time a character reaches 40. - Gets Power Hues. - Gets monthly C-Points stipend. - Can buy extra bank slots for Globals instead of C-Points. - Some more stuff that I'm not sure about since I've never been Gold.
^
I honestly can't see why everyone is so riled up about this. I don't see how this "cheapens" any subscriber's payment or loyalty to CO.
And to those people saying "Freeform is the -only- reason to subscribe", you do realize that with one Gold sub payment of 15$, you get FF for all characters whereas if PWE's idea goes through, Silver players will have to buy a new slot -EVERYTIME- they want to make a new FF?
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Post by Jaxton Dragoon on Feb 9, 2012 10:08:48 GMT -5
Scorcher, I don't see how Freeform "completes" the experience. True, it does offer players more customization and a better chance to be the hero they want. However, I play ATs almost exclusively and rarely ever do I feel second class around my friends who play Freeform. I've even outscored them on Open Missions.
In fact, the last direct comment I remember having anything to do with AT vs Freeform between a friend and me was after I hit lvl40 on my last hero. He asked what power I took and I told him I was playing an AT. He said he had totally forgotten that.
Based upon the logical cost of a single Freeform unlock I see no threat to Gold/LTS only the potential for newbies to whine because they make horribly broken builds by picking what sounds/looks cool as opposed to what works.
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Post by KenpoJuJitsu3 on Feb 9, 2012 10:31:21 GMT -5
Scorcher, I don't see how Freeform "completes" the experience. Consider that the tagline for the game is "be the hero you want to be." The entire initial point of the game, before it was forced to go F2P, was to create your own hero one power choice at a time rather than follow set classes as other games did and do. Freeform, essentially does complete the experience in that regard. Using an AT you can definitely have fun and you might find a hero you want to be in the AT selections, but if you don't find exactly the powers you want what you're really doing is playing the hero someone else came up with.
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Post by Admin on Feb 9, 2012 10:41:15 GMT -5
I let my sub lapse a long time ago, so I would definitely buy a freeform slot
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Post by Jaxton Dragoon on Feb 9, 2012 16:19:26 GMT -5
Consider that the tagline for the game is "be the hero you want to be." The entire initial point of the game, before it was forced to go F2P, was to create your own hero one power choice at a time rather than follow set classes as other games did and do. Freeform, essentially does complete the experience in that regard. Using an AT you can definitely have fun and you might find a hero you want to be in the AT selections, but if you don't find exactly the powers you want what you're really doing is playing the hero someone else came up with. True, that's why I cited it in my post. I see how Freeform gives far more customization but it also gives many more chances to bork a character. I had no clue what I was doing when I first started the month before F2P. So I like the Archetype system. So far my only real complaint there is the general lack of a heal. I do know over time I will switch to Freeforms once I learn the powers better which is primarily what I am using the ATs to do.
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Post by joh on Feb 9, 2012 17:46:48 GMT -5
I'm on the group that thinks^2 that adding freeform slots increases the value of a lifetime sub. It actually encourages me to go LT, why? pretty much the same reason I don't convert all of my AT toons to silver when I'm not gold. I don't want to pay for an extra character slot + a premium AT (if it fits) when I can just sub for $15 and get $5 back in stipend that I use on TPs or Costume sets.
Freeforms on new silvers might be a problem (we will see after the gear, tier powers and SS changes are finalized) 'cause it is overwhelming, it was back when I started and we had fewer powers back then. As jax stated people could go for what looks cool or what they want over what works and make a poor job with their toons, thus having to retcon, guess what silvers don't get at 40 besides the extra slot? Some might rage quit after that. I'm not overly concerned with making the best/optimized Freeform build that I can, that actually makes me feel like I'm working or competing instead of playing, the reason I love freeforms is that they actually let me create the hero I want to play. I don't have to be a big DPS or as some people end up with, a glass cannon, I can make a survivable DPS with the powerset that fits the concept of the character I wanted to make/play. But more importantly, a build that fits that game style.
So let's see, a freeform slot comparisson.
Base price for this is the cost of a premium AT (920CP) + price of character slots (1,120CP for 2 slots which I will turn into 560CP per slot) which adds to 1,480CP for a freeform character slot.
1,480CP is $18.50USD if my math is right and we all know a month of gold is $15 and you get $5 back. Sure that slot is a lifetime freeform slot, you don't need to pay every time you want to play it.
So OK as a monthly subscriber you get 8 freeform slots (an additional slot once you hit 40) so 1,480CP x 8 = 11840. $148USD and lifetime is twice that amount ($296USD). So yea adding freeform slots alone increases the value you get out of being a LT subber.
However the reason I'm not LT is 'cause I don't NEED to be freeform all the time as I'm tired of the same old missions. So I can be gold a month or two and go back to silver, have the benefits of both types and still pay less than a lifetime sub. Also when I'm gold I feel like I should only play CO 'cause I'm paying for it, when I'm silver I actually play other games instead and casually log on CO. Those double XP events made me sub, it's great leveling faster thus allowing you to skip certain boring missions (Cryptic please consider adding Double XP to monthly BM events, after all, BM doesn't get you that much XP unless you do crypts and here's the balance:
You do crypts for XP and AF parts and you sacrifice farming those neat devices.
You farm devices and you are forced to "ignore" the double XP boost. Besides you want to farm those devices at 40 anyway.)
So back on topic, Freeform slots are an option for silver that actually adds value to LT. Monthly sub is still superior in my book unless you plan on playing the game for 20 - 60 months (20 will make you look stupid as you paid the LT equivalent in monthly subs and 60 is the stipend break even)
P.S. I know that there are ways to sub for cheaper thus 20 isn't really = LT price but it's close enough
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Post by ashen on Feb 9, 2012 18:44:32 GMT -5
I don't even see what all the fuss is about. You'll still have to buy the Freeform slot (and it's gotta be optional, if you don't like Freeforms, don't buy it?), it will definitely be more expensive than a character slot or premium AT, and the silvers will still not get -any- other benefits that subscribers do. Silver Player who buys ONE Freeform slot, roughly the value of a one month sub. - 15$ or more. - Gets ONE Freeform slot, quite possibly limited to only the powersets available/purchased. - Gets -NOTHING- else. Gold player, who continues monthly sub. - 15$ - Gets Freeform for ALL slots. - Gets All premium AT's for free. - Gets -most- costume sets for free. - Gets Retcon at 40. - Gets extra character slot each time a character reaches 40. - Gets Power Hues. - Gets monthly C-Points stipend. - Can buy extra bank slots for Globals instead of C-Points. - Some more stuff that I'm not sure about since I've never been Gold. ^ I honestly can't see why everyone is so riled up about this. I don't see how this "cheapens" any subscriber's payment or loyalty to CO. And to those people saying "Freeform is the -only- reason to subscribe", you do realize that with one Gold sub payment of 15$, you get FF for all characters whereas if PWE's idea goes through, Silver players will have to buy a new slot -EVERYTIME- they want to make a new FF? Value is subjective. Perhaps your bullet point elements would make a subscription worthwhile compared to a FF character slot to you, but not to everyone else. Personally I support the idea of FF character slots in the C-Store. I think that there are some pretty significant concerns that they might want to address, or at least consider, during the implementation process.
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Post by scorcherofthorns on Feb 9, 2012 18:45:28 GMT -5
Consider that the tagline for the game is "be the hero you want to be." The entire initial point of the game, before it was forced to go F2P, was to create your own hero one power choice at a time rather than follow set classes as other games did and do. Freeform, essentially does complete the experience in that regard. Using an AT you can definitely have fun and you might find a hero you want to be in the AT selections, but if you don't find exactly the powers you want what you're really doing is playing the hero someone else came up with. True, that's why I cited it in my post. I see how Freeform gives far more customization but it also gives many more chances to bork a character. I had no clue what I was doing when I first started the month before F2P. So I like the Archetype system. So far my only real complaint there is the general lack of a heal. I do know over time I will switch to Freeforms once I learn the powers better which is primarily what I am using the ATs to do. But jaxt then we are all agreing on everything, read carefully, I think we are all on the same page, though all of you still don't agree with my theory of freeform ruining the difficulty level, its ok Ill be the weird guy of the class, I was born to be that way, but for the on topic stuff we are pretty much on the same mark, we are all in favor aren't we? The reason why I said the freeform completes the experience is pretty much for the facts you mentioned, the lack of heals is one of the very most strongest areas adressed with the freeform slot, and after all you can emulate any AT with a freeform, or better yet, perfect the concept like kenpo did with his behemoth like build a few months ago, thats definetely completing the experience, even if you are crazy about ATs
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