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Post by thatsnozaku on Jul 12, 2015 7:05:01 GMT -5
Hi there! Long time lurker and user of numerous guides listed here and somebody who has meant to dust off my proboards account forever now to put in a request for build assistance from anyone who has the time to help me sort it out! I used a fair number of the outlines available here in turning my supernatural-themed munitions DPS character into a (ranged) tank-oriented playstyle, but ultimately I've noticed that the build is - even without accounting for thematic concessions - far from optimal even in terms of specializations, and so I was hoping to have help essentially revising the build in terms of talents and powers without, if possible, compromising too much of the character's theme-based abilities. If needed I'm happy to list his abilities and specializations in a format similar to the many build outlines here, but for the sake of saving time if that's not necessary I present his current powerhouse build: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse.html?v=11&n=&d=1352KIGNPWKd070Q000820H7F009I00A703K40484058I0LDM00QG03DL05K703K80GQJ040d7t438W0CATThat's the overall outline I've been working with since returning to this character to turn him into a munitions tank in the first place, and one I've sunk a considerable amount of time and globals into playtesting within and beyond the Powerhouse. I figured I'd should probably try to save some in-game currency by asking here instead of grinding alerts every time I have a question about performance, and I imagine my current energy concerns compared to my Soldier AT are mostly tied to a lack of optimized gear -- on that note, I'd be happy to mention that being at 35 the build doesn't need to work for a leveling character if a different flow of abilities would work better. Speaking of energy, I went with Overdrive in particular due to the primary attacks used on the character both being maintained and generally intrinsic to the character's ability to tank groups or bosses, and I similarly chose Shadow Shroud both for the improved energy gains while it was active and the thematic effects of spreading fear to enemies without having to specifically target them, rather than Killer Instinct and Lock & Load as many guides suggest. Abilities like Rebirth are likewise a mixture of handiness and theme by popping out some zombies in the process, but generally speaking I mostly just enjoy the mix of fiery green doom energy building and dual revolvers. Either way, from superstats to specializations I'm open to any input I can get and have wondered lately if a build emphasizing crits and energy gained from them in particular would be a better fit for a tank that's not melee-centric by any means. I hope this wall of text was posted in the right part of the forum, and apologize for my first post being a request for build assistance out of the blue. Thanks in advance for any time and crunch that might go into helping me out!
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jul 12, 2015 21:30:50 GMT -5
Hi there, thanks for asking our opinions. I appreciate the effort you took, and looking at your portrait and your build, I have an idea of what you're going for. I know a lot of people actually suggest builds based on exactly what they would use; they're not helping you with your build, they're just copy-pasting their own. Appreciating what you're going for, I would only make the few minor adjustments:
Lightning Reflexes --> Defiance
Due to a number of nerfs and how equipment works now and other considerations of the meta, I suggest moving away from a Dodge-based build to a sheer damage mitigation approach. Dodge Tanks take a lot of dedication. Lightning Reflexes and Dex are not enough, you'll need to include expensive mods, swap your attacks to Dodge-increasing ones, etc. Dodge Tanks are viable, but you pretty have to go all in or go home, not something you want to mix theme with. That said, no need to remove Masterful Dodge, as ironically that works just as well on any build as a Dodge build.
Dexterity --> Intelligence
It's hard to tell until actually play with the build all the way to 40 (which I don't plan on doing, forgive me), but I think you're better served with Intelligence as a tertiary stat than Dex. Again it's partly due to the nerfs to Dex, but also Int gives you better energy management and faster cooldowns so you can use your Masterful Dodge and Resurgence faster, plus also other little things like Holdout Shot with Stimpack and Void Shift. Speaking of...
Holdout Shot Rank 2 --> Void Shift w/ Emerging Nightmare
Holdout Shot is great for that Heal-Over-Time, but since it has a one-shot thing with a cooldown IMHO it's not worth bothering to rank up the damage. Instead, move those 2 points to Void Shift w/ Emerging Nightmare, to apply an AoE fear effect. That's very useful in general, but particularly for Tanking, plus I think this is a great fit to your theme.
Scarab Flight --> Flight
Flight is too useful to you, even though I understand you may be resistant to the idea thematically. Even with the your Knockback Resistance specs, without Strength as your primary stat you -will- be knocked back (because I think the game over-skewed the Knockback effects by enemies). Flight turns a Knockback into a Knock-Into-the-Air, which is a lot easier to manage. It's good for anyone to consider now (due to the ridiculousness of Knockbacks atm) but especially if you plan on Tanking.
Shifted around some CON specs
I know you want Knockback resistance. Having played around with them, I found they don't make a different in the current meta anyway, it's better just to aim for more Defense and HP. Point-for-Spec-Point, those things are just more reliable in my experience. It just works out that in CO Defense is one of the more reliable things (so even if an enemy or PvP opponent can bypass Defense, the best thing is to have even more Defense so he can't bypass it all) and HP is always HP, the one stat that never lies. The reasons are complicated but it's down to Cryptic's designs are Cryptic.
---
Final thought - there's something I've discovered. I was mainly a Glacier AT, then a Behemoth AT, then played almost all the ATs to 40, then went Freeform. So I have a lot of experience being the team Tank under harsh conditions. I've discovered this: because this game is skewed, you can be a better Tank by being an awesome DPS than actually being in a Tank role.
To do so, you can pretty much keep your entire build as is, -except- for your Slotted Passive. If you're going to respec, leave -that- choice until near the end so you can experiment with it, retcon for cheap in the PH. Try using things like Kinetic Manipulation and Earth Form, which are Physical Damage-buffing Offensive Passives, -but- ALSO have a Physical damage-reduction component, useful for Tanks, especially since IMHO 70% of all PvE damage in-game is classified as Physical (i.e. most every enemy is punching you or shooting at you with bullets, all Physical).
(Also, on that note, I really started to dislike BCR because it nerfs your damage, swap it with Conviction Rank 3 if you choose this route).
The result, I found - you're almost just as survivable, but doing a lot more DPS, and drawing aggro more effectively as a result of DPS. CO is just skewed in terms of how much threat DPS draws. Also, sometimes the best way to protect the party and yourself is to take out the enemies fast. It's a counter-intuitive thing, but if you're going to respec anyway, try leaving the Passive as the last thing you get, as it's really worth seeing for yourself.
Final-final thing - how's your gear? Consider getting the Armadillo Secondaries (Armadillo Ring, Boots, Glasses) in the Questionite store, if you've got 33,000 Questionite lying around. It'll scale up with your level, something I found so useful I actually keep on using it now (because again they provide good defense against Physical damage that most enemies deal).
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Post by thatsnozaku on Jul 13, 2015 12:15:59 GMT -5
Fantastic feedback and I'm very appreciative of all the detailed (and experienced) input you took the time to provide -- it's exactly the sort of stuff I hoped for when finally signing up to ask for suggestions in the first place! Skipping around a bit, your commentary on using raw DPS to tank has been exactly my experience since returning to the game, and ever since the game went F2P I've honestly done a lot more successful alerts via my soldier AT's sheer energy regen and damage output with the gatling gun's sustained DPS (as long as I had a healer in the party), whereas building a freeform character to actually play the dedicated tank has become more or less a case of wondering if the group's damage will beat a countdown timer or the HP regeneration of certain supervillains.
It was the fragility of DPS versus the performance of tanks I'd partied with that didn't even need the rest of the group to progress that had me going for trying to make one work without sacrificing the theme I'm glad you picked up on. I'd been incorporating a lot of Deadlands and Dark Tower into the character's background in addition to the obvious source material and I wanted the character to perform as impressively as I imagined a revenant-y sort of gunslinger to be, only to end up noticing exactly what you noted: Threat and thread-building advantages on my abilities seemed to matter much less than raw damage output, which I directly experienced in switching from an altered version of Kenpo's Will N. Testament DPS build to the WIP tank I've been tinkering with recently.
Knockbacks are certainly really annoying when trying to establish threat or even just pop some self-heals, but I'm honestly fine with dropping resistance on a build without STR for reasons you stated, especially since my experience has been that the stats have honestly done very little to resist the ones I really need to. Nothing consistently throws off a big pull going well like Viper alert knockback spam as well as really nasty holds like Cairngorn Stoneblood's especially long one, so being a ranged tank I understand the room's not really there to resist them like melee characters can.
As for the gear I was actually debating whether or not to use the Armadillo set or the DPS set to better scale my character's stats and survivability, so I appreciation the suggestion to in fact grab a set with some of my Q as I was otherwise pretty stuck trying to figure out how to make the character more energy efficient with cost reductions (which I'm happy to have the suggestion of Intelligence over Dexterity to help with).
--
My only questions now are:
1) How much should I change around my specializations and talents based on the other tweaks to either deal more raw damage or otherwise optimize stats in general? Especially in regards to swapping Dexterity for Intelligence.
2) Other than the visual differences, does Scarab Flight impact energy regeneration more than normal Flight or are there other reasons to the switch besides not just looking like an angry cloud of bugs and dirt during alerts?
3) Which combat role should I swap to in order to make the most use of whichever passive ends up being the best compromise between damage output, damage resistance, and theme?
4) Would Shadow Shroud's Terrifying Visage advantage stack with Void Shift's Emerging Nightmare advantage? If not, should only one power be a source of that effect and thus prompt me to pick a more optimal ability in place of the other?
Otherwise, again, thank you very much for all the feedback given to help me optimize this character, and if there are other powers I could use in place of what's already there to improve him I'm totally cool with that. At this point a full respec and rebuild beyond the energy builder and two sustained attacks (TGM and LT) are both entirely acceptable if various other abilities and my current specializations would do with replacing (short of visual effects that clash too much in the powers department). As it stands, your suggestion of Kinetic Manipulation sounds like a much better passive already, and I don't mind being confirming it myself on the way to 40 rather than having anyone else to go through that trouble for me!
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jul 14, 2015 6:16:20 GMT -5
I made 2 mistakes, sorry about that: 1. Linked the wrong Powerhouse build 2. Forgot how Scarab Flight worked My only questions now are: 1) How much should I change around my specializations and talents based on the other tweaks to either deal more raw damage or otherwise optimize stats in general? Especially in regards to swapping Dexterity for Intelligence. 2) Other than the visual differences, does Scarab Flight impact energy regeneration more than normal Flight or are there other reasons to the switch besides not just looking like an angry cloud of bugs and dirt during alerts? 3) Which combat role should I swap to in order to make the most use of whichever passive ends up being the best compromise between damage output, damage resistance, and theme? 4) Would Shadow Shroud's Terrifying Visage advantage stack with Void Shift's Emerging Nightmare advantage? If not, should only one power be a source of that effect and thus prompt me to pick a more optimal ability in place of the other? 1. I failed to link the Powerhouse build last time, here it is with the appropriate specializations and talents, but basically this is how I'd set it up: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse.html?v=11&n=&d=1354KNMRPWTd070Q000820H7F009I00I903K40484048I0LDM00QG03J503K703K80KQJ042sNM438W0CAT2. That one, totally on me. I use Bat Flight and it doesn't operate the same way (Bat Flight doesn't let you attack, it's purely a cosmetic travel power). You're right, by all means, stick with Scarab Flight. 3. I stay in Ranged DPS mode. In my case, I use a 2 Gun Mojo/Lead Tempest/Kinetic Manipulation build entirely set up for DPS and I usually tank everything fine EXCEPT for Frosticus (boss in the Fire & Ice Rampage). This was true even when I had only Heroic Gear on. In fact, it's interesting to note the other big bad, Gravitar (from her own Rampage) isn't that big a threat precisely because Kinetic Manipulation protects against her specific type of powers. Actually, now that I remember it, it's not a hypothetical, assuming you get Heroic Gear at the end you can Tank anything in DPS mode until they change the game mechanics or something. 4. I do not know about Terrifying Visage + Emerging Nightmare stacking. That's a good question. The difference is Void Shift has a fast cooldown, and since you use it more, you apply that Fear effect more often. My thought was, if you're willing to invest 2 points on something you'll use about once per 30 seconds, it's definitely worth investing the same on something you can use about once every 3 seconds. --- 2 quick disclaimers: 1st, technically, Overdrive scales with Recovery more than Intelligence. I tested it out. However, I found at higher levels, the cost discount you also get from Intelligence actually makes it work out better in the long run (beyond even the benefits of cooldown reductions). 2nd, Questionite Gear, please take note of this so you don't repeat my mistake. There's the Armadillo Set which gives like 25% Physical damage reduction and the Samurai Set which gives 25% Physical damage. Looks equal, right? They are not. Due to how the damage reduction and damage buff mechanics work, the Armadillo set is much better even for offense roles. Although both offer a 25% bonus ON PAPER, in practice, the Armadillo offers an actual 20% physical reduction and the Samurai set offers only about a 3% (3 percent, not a typo) increase. Not all enemy damage is Physical, in fact if you PvP that will be an issue, but against normal PvE where most enemy damage are punches/rocks/bullets, the Armadillo Set is a good buy. It's one of those things that just suit the environment you normally fight in. Also, with the amount of bonus Questionite weeks it's easy to farm Q.
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Post by thatsnozaku on Jul 15, 2015 9:10:08 GMT -5
I made 2 mistakes, sorry about that: 1. Linked the wrong Powerhouse build 2. Forgot how Scarab Flight worked Not a problem! I had assumed the former and just wasn't sure about the latter when it came to energy regeneration differences right off the top of my head, but I might switch to Flight anyway just to compensate for knocks like you mentioned without being mostly invisible every time I have to counter them via Flight. I wish the Shadow Skull and Bat Form powers worked in combat and I'm not sure why they don't yet Scarab Flight does, but that's just a bit of nitpicking on my end. Ultimately, the issue of fear stacking or not is fine (especially in regards to effective uptime, as you already pointed out), since it just occurred to me after logging in yesterday that Shadow Shroud being an Active Offense to pop versus the on-demand fear of Void Shift's advantage meant one would see a lot more utility while the other was just a fun little benefit during a damage burst. Regarding the three Q gear sets, yeah, I remember reading way-back-when about issues with how the effects scale compared to each other and that my soldier AT was much better off with pure damage reduction than offensive upgrades up until he got Heroic pieces. I'm definitely going to lean towards Armadillo for this character as well, especially if switching back to ranged DPS in addition to the changes I seriously appreciate you suggesting with the linked build. Exactly what I was hoping for in terms of streamlining! -- My last few questions: 1) Would Kinetic Manipulation's benefits outweigh those of Defiance? I'm guessing that if I favor a Ranged DPS role after all that Defiance may not have a defensive slot available, and then my only concern is if Shadow Shroud's energy form conflicts with KM's -- in which case, I'd be alright going back to Lock & Load for my AO and still have the fear effects and thematic visuals from Void Shift, as mentioned above. 2) Should I stick to Challenging Strikes on TGM and LT or go for Rank 3 on both for more direct damage, given just how much threat more damage tends to create compared to even genuine threat generators? 3) Would The Invincible be a better Innate Talent by buffing all three primary stats as well as some Endurance to boost Equilibrium? As always, thank you very much again for all this feedback and information with optimizing this character; it's definitely a massive relief in sorting out the best use of the freeform's abilities to (hopefully) tank up to Gravitar. I look forward to gearing him into handling Frosticus later as well, as I've never quite been able to handle any of the big bads on my AT-based characters.
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jul 16, 2015 8:26:31 GMT -5
My last few questions: 1) Would Kinetic Manipulation's benefits outweigh those of Defiance? I'm guessing that if I favor a Ranged DPS role after all that Defiance may not have a defensive slot available, and then my only concern is if Shadow Shroud's energy form conflicts with KM's -- in which case, I'd be alright going back to Lock & Load for my AO and still have the fear effects and thematic visuals from Void Shift, as mentioned above. 2) Should I stick to Challenging Strikes on TGM and LT or go for Rank 3 on both for more direct damage, given just how much threat more damage tends to create compared to even genuine threat generators? 3) Would The Invincible be a better Innate Talent by buffing all three primary stats as well as some Endurance to boost Equilibrium? As always, thank you very much again for all this feedback and information with optimizing this character; it's definitely a massive relief in sorting out the best use of the freeform's abilities to (hopefully) tank up to Gravitar. I look forward to gearing him into handling Frosticus later as well, as I've never quite been able to handle any of the big bads on my AT-based characters. Hiya, good questions. 1. Kinetic Manipulation Short answer: Yes, I think its benefits outweigh those of Defiance. Long answer: Yes, because I was just double-checking with a build similar to yours, only level 27, was already Tanking most stuff. The important thing was I was also using the Active Defenses and Self-Heals and healing devices (just the Stimpacks), on a Ranged DPS, while surviving all sorts of Alerts. The real answer is the meta. Your build setup, the gear available in-game plus your experience playing a squishy Archetype (you mentioned Soldier AT, I've got 2 myself, and I still play it frequently) is more than good enough to survive all content in CO except for Frosticus IMHO. To be clear, Defiance IS the best Defensive Passive in the game...but IMHO you never need that level of Defense, what with the gear and the enemies you face in the game. With 2 Gun Mojo being such a great DPS power, you might as well benefit that more with Kinetic Manipulation IMHO. (The exception is Frosticus, which IMHO requires some very specific builds and still a Healer/Buffer, or if you deliberately gimp yourself by trying to take 3 Shadow Colossi from Resistance. That's really going out of your way.) There is a bit of a learning curve and you will want to get some gear (IMHO Armadillo Gear and Heroic Gear is enough and easy to get). At 1 time, I made a build like yours where I would take both Kinetic Manipulation AND Defiance, but very quickly I dropped Defiance altogether. But as before, if you're respeccing, I think you can afford to choose your Slotted Passive near the end and experiment. There is also a slight benefit from Defiance for being energy generating, so if you find yourself using your Energy Builder, maybe Defiance is better for this build. Not everybody can handle it. However, your level of thinking as shown by your questions suggests you can handle this, no problem. I understand it's a little bit counter-intuitive, but it's one of those things where I think Defiance are like training wheels; you go faster without them with no risk. 2. Challenging/Crippling Strikes etc. This is a tough call, but I think...yes. But I'm not so sure about this one. I had a build almost the same as yours lose threat against a dedicated Tank recently. It doesn't usually happen, I think the guy was spamming Defensive Combo. So if you want to make a point to draw aggro, sure, keep Challenging/Crippling Strikes. 3. Innate Talent Actually, I think Rec is better than End. IMHO you are right in choosing Soldier as your Innate Talent, no worries there. --- I was Tanking Gravitar with a Savage AT earlier today in only an 8-man Team. You'll be fine against Gravitar IMHO. I do remember when she seemed impossible, especially as an AT player, then I learned, then I became a LTS and learned some more, and now I can only play against her as an AT otherwise I don't feel the challenge anymore.
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Post by thatsnozaku on Jul 16, 2015 11:00:40 GMT -5
Yeah, the efficiency of stats and damage output for the Soldier had it quickly become one of my favorite Archetypes and the one I still use most when not tweaking my Freeform character. I wish my Devastator could handle the trouble he typically gets himself into nearly as well as my Soldier can, even if the Devastator's still fun to play otherwise. I'll be very happy to test both passives and see how they feel but I'm certainly down with optimizing DPS with KM to burn through most things up to Gravitar rather than having to build specific ways just to try and handle a few exceptional situations.. unless my energy issues are such that I really do need Defiance instead!
As for the threat, I imagine I also might run into situations not unlike your own, where instead more min-maxed DPS characters might be able to otherwise surpass my threat output with raw DPS given the frequently mentioned way the game handles threat and damage ratios, so I may very well stick with Crippling Challenge on both abilities just to account for a relatively likely scenario (especially when it comes to harder bosses where maintaining healer focus on the designated tank is as important as damage output not having to spike and drop whenever things got hairy).
Lastly, I appreciate the suggestion of favoring the Rec bonus with my Innate Talent and I'll be glad to stick with The Soldier after all since I've been very concerned with energy management being optimal during big pulls in particular. Otherwise, I think that has mostly covered everything that can be covered beyond a bit more direct testing on my end, and I can't thank you enough for the time and expertise you put into answering my questions and steering me into a more optimal direction for my Freeform hero.
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jul 17, 2015 11:17:49 GMT -5
Your experiences with the Devastator and the Soldier is a really great example. On paper, the Devastator seems to be more survivable with Con as a stat and some gradual healing, but in practice the Soldier is better due to Smoke Grenade to lose aggro and out-ranging tricks to handle trouble. The reason I recommend Kinetic Manipulation is that, technically, it's not that great or popular a power, but something Xstorm (another forumite here, the guy who taught me about KM) and I found to be more effective in the meta than most other options.
Your analysis of the threat issue matches mine, yeah, it's like that.
And yeah, Rec remains useful, especially with Overdrive as your Energy Unlock. You need the "bank roll" to get that energy return mechanic going, and Rec gives you a little bit more margin for error. A trick you may already know, but it took me awhile to figure out, is to do half-maintains. My instinct at the start was to maintain a power like 2 Gun Mojo for as long as I could. However, if you choose to just hold it past halfway, you trigger Overdrive and Concentration, then let go and maintain it again. You'll essentially stack Overdrive and Concentration 2x as fast.
Final Disclaimers - remember KM works for Physical Ranged, not melee, so your Flight and 50 ft range is part of your arsenal. Watch out for Jack Fool in particular, he has crazy DPS spikes. Baron Cimitiere has this damage-reflection thing when he blocks/glows green and your DPS may be so high you kill yourself before you see it (not your fault, people put so many effects on bosses sometimes they're hard to see). Finally, remember there is a slight learning curve with Tanking via DPS...but not that big a one, and it's worth it.
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Post by thatsnozaku on Jul 21, 2015 13:30:08 GMT -5
Pardon the delay, been doing testing when I had time and handling all sorts of IRL stuff to boot!
Yeah, I frequently find myself wishing the Devastator was designed to endure how much attention the AT can get at a distance where it's difficult to lose it afterwards, but I suppose that's partially a result of the game having been switched to an interdependent class-based system where folks capable of handling a ton of trouble on their own without support is exceptional rather than definitive. Still, I do enjoy the thematic and literal impact of the AT, and with an actual healer it becomes a lot more fun even without feeling very optimal.
I believe that focusing on Ranged DPS-style tanking rather than actually playing the Tank roll will help with that energy bankroll I often struggled with as an actual Tank, especially once I get some worthwhile gear upgrades that cut down the cost of maintains enough to be worth the loss of stacking 50% damage resistance like I have been. Still, it definitely helped to maintain just over half like you suggested and then start over.
As for Jack Fool, I found that even when geared to try and eat the damage he could still effectively one-shot my character unless I blocked without exception, so I'm certainly happy to try and just avoid the damage instead of endure it. As for the Baron, I'll be mindful of the reflect that I've either been lucky in my groupings to not experience often or just haven't seen much of period on my Freeform. I'll probably switch back to a dedicated Tank role using Defiance if they ever actually re-balance the game, though.
--
That aside, I actually had one last question now that I've had some time to test the build further: Exactly which stats should I focus on via slotted gear to maximize performance? I wasn't sure if more straight-up Con would be worthwhile investments or if I'd be better served by instead raising Ego and/or Intelligence scores and, if so, how much would be considered a soft cap before I could focus my points elsewhere when possible.
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Jul 24, 2015 13:21:11 GMT -5
A quick reply.
Regarding stats, at level 40 I've got Ego around 280, then both Con and Int around 220. That's the rough level I have for everything up to and including Gravitar with minimal trouble. This is as much an efficiency issue as it is an economic one; mods can get pricey, so I used some Rank 5s and got this. There is a school of thought you don't really need that much Ego or Int, so better to put into Con, as extra HP is extra HP. It's generally said Diminishing Returns hit above the 300 mark.
Quck note on Jack Fool. You can outrange him by floating directly above his head at about 50 feet. He'll linger directly below you, allowing melee teammates to hit him. However, assuming you don't do that, notice Jack Fool has 2 high spike damage attacks that require charging up. He will do them one after the other, usually. By the next few fights, you'll certainly notice there's a rhythm to him, and if you block those 2 specific attacks you're fine.
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Post by thatsnozaku on Nov 16, 2015 11:30:19 GMT -5
Hello again to anyone who reads this message! After playing with the last build that not1stepbackwards did a fantastic job of turning into a worthwhile munitions tank, I've been toying with an (almost) more conventional melee tank concept that combines a whole lot of technology and personal shield abilities as well as a bit of heavy weapons to (hopefully) grab threat, and I was looking for some more feedback as to what I might cut or change - such as Support Drones and/or Implosion Engine, for example - to round out the character's performance/minimize redundancy. As it is, I'm concerned my choices for heavy weapons don't really make good enough use of the powerset to warrant inclusion even if I usually prefer to avoid having more attacks than I actually need on Freeform characters. Given my Soldier-turned-Specialist's ranged emphasis and the drawbacks I encountered using the Devastator AT, my thinking was centered around a character whose theme didn't preclude technology-based powers and could survive if not thrive in melee range. That aside, I'd also love some general advantage/talent/superstat optimization advice in case I could improve the character there as well. Here's the current build: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse-beta.html?v=11&n=&d=1134WAMBPETM070G000G10HG209K80O9G0534037G00GC0C3B05QG037B037Q007V00QJ001rWG3SXU3UbTCheers, and thanks a ton in advance to whoever might find time to help me out!
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Nov 19, 2015 10:32:30 GMT -5
Sorry for late reply. I'm just checking the forums during the weekly CO maintenance. This looks very solid and optimised for what you're going for. It's a very tidy PFF build. What others may point out is that PFF is weak/nerfed/whatever, but you're doing the right things, complementing it with Field Surge and Energy Shield w/ Laser Knight, etc. This is a neat little build. Anything that I would personally change are purely personal preferences. Let's confirm your choices by comparing them with alternatives. The goal - if you find you still prefer your original picks, then it's a lock, no more doubt. Personal Force Field or Defiance - Defiance is more straight-forward, no need to worry about Field Surge i.e. no dependencies, thus it is more popular. Would you consider this option? Bionic Shielding or Conviction - again, a case of being more straight-forward, Conviction is just an immediate self-heal. Would you consider that? Implosion Engine or Demolish or Haymaker - this might be worth considering, actually. Demolish applies a debuff while Haymaker has a big bonus (up to around 50%) against knock-resistant targets like most bosses, allowing you to hold aggro. Laser Knight advantage - this isn't a comparison, just a double-check; it works for even non-Power Armour melee attacks, right? There was some nuance with the advantages for melee and ranged attacks, in or out of the Power Armour set. Not contradicting you, I just honestly can't remember and the server's down so I can't check. Again, the goal here is not to suggest changes, I think your build is already solid. By comparing, it's just confirmation, making sure we're on the path of no regret here.
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Post by thatsnozaku on Nov 20, 2015 8:00:32 GMT -5
No problem at all for the delay and thanks a ton for making time to once again send some advice my way! -- 1) PFF vs Defiance: I actually debated this a bit myself due to our previous discussions of how well it worked for a "damage tank" build to be able to handle the trouble it got itself into, and while this character is perhaps more "typical" of a tank in terms of the defensive emphasis I was still concerned with being able to reliably grab and then survive attention rather than having the character die to a sudden spike near the end of a fight or something. I might send these to the last slot for some comparison testing to be sure. 2) BS vs Conviction: BS certainly has the tech theme going for it, but I was concerned with how finicky it could be during combat -- to where I'd previously done away with it just because of the targeted use throwing off my performance and survival in other builds, so Conviction's definitely easier to use and a more immediate spike damage counter. Seeing I already have other HoTs it's not like I'd be hurting over one less! 3) IE vs Demolish/Haymaker: Honestly, IE is mostly only there because I realized I never seem to make use of Ultimates and Gravity Driver hasn't been added to the PowerHouse website -- and on that note, GD being new and shiny aside, it's not something I'm sure would be worth having on a tank character in the first place. The bonuses of Haymaker and the debuff from Demolish are certainly appealing, and to be honest anything in that slot that either doesn't need advantages to be worthwhile or uses advantage points freed up by changes elsewhere works very well for me. 4) Laser Knight Advantage: I actually haven't been able to test quite that far yet and was simply going out on a limb with that choice since I liked the idea of being shielding even during attacks. If it doesn't work for melee powers outside of the PA tree then it's definitely quite a bummer for this character's focus on Heavy Weapons and something that would actually force me to shift the build away from the PFF theme entirely and into more a conventional Defiance-oriented setup as mentioned above. -- Speaking of changes, given the character's lack of PRE to really bring out the best of support-oriented abilities like the Support Drones, would that slot be better used by something like Reconstruction Circuits or would RC conflict with one of the many other healing abilities used by the character? If so and/or the slot could be better used in general, much like Implosion Engine, I'm happy for the feedback as to what else I could do with the character. Likewise, if there are better applications of abilities from the Heavy Weapons tree than what I've chosen, I'm very open to changes there as well. I was actually wondering if Aspect of the Machine had any application here or if Enrage was the best non-elemental buff for the job, especially with its Endorphin Rush advantage. All things considered, my concerns are otherwise centered around whether or not my superstat choices are ideal and if any talent/talent trees would better suit the abilities in place (at least in theory, since I don't mean to imply that I expect you or anyone else who contributes here to do all of the legwork for me). Here's what I have so far, with the other possible changes pending feedback and further testing: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse-beta.html?v=11&n=&d=1134WAMBPETM070G000G10HG209K80O9G0534037G00GC0C3B05QG03J5037Q007V00QJ001rWG3SXU3UbT-- Again, thanks a ton for getting back to me! It's good to talk builds again after how much fun I had due to your help before.
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Post by not1stepbackwards on Nov 21, 2015 21:49:38 GMT -5
4) Laser Knight Advantage: I actually haven't been able to test quite that far yet and was simply going out on a limb with that choice since I liked the idea of being shielding even during attacks. If it doesn't work for melee powers outside of the PA tree then it's definitely quite a bummer for this character's focus on Heavy Weapons and something that would actually force me to shift the build away from the PFF theme entirely and into more a conventional Defiance-oriented setup as mentioned above. -- Speaking of changes, given the character's lack of PRE to really bring out the best of support-oriented abilities like the Support Drones, would that slot be better used by something like Reconstruction Circuits or would RC conflict with one of the many other healing abilities used by the character? If so and/or the slot could be better used in general, much like Implosion Engine, I'm happy for the feedback as to what else I could do with the character. Likewise, if there are better applications of abilities from the Heavy Weapons tree than what I've chosen, I'm very open to changes there as well. I was actually wondering if Aspect of the Machine had any application here or if Enrage was the best non-elemental buff for the job, especially with its Endorphin Rush advantage. All things considered, my concerns are otherwise centered around whether or not my superstat choices are ideal and if any talent/talent trees would better suit the abilities in place (at least in theory, since I don't mean to imply that I expect you or anyone else who contributes here to do all of the legwork for me). Here's what I have so far, with the other possible changes pending feedback and further testing: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse-beta.html?v=11&n=&d=1134WAMBPETM070G000G10HG209K80O9G0534037G00GC0C3B05QG03J5037Q007V00QJ001rWG3SXU3UbTA quick reply. Laser Knight Advantage - I actually think you're fine as the tool-tip doesn't specify, but keep it on your radar. I found a bug in Telekinetic Shield's advantage because it doesn't do what it says on the tin. --- No PRE for Support Drones? No problem. This is a very interesting issue. PRE does not directly affect the healing on Support Drones anymore due to changes to Pets around the Alerts era (i.e. it used to, but no longer). The only attributes from a character that affect his Pets are actually Critical Chance and Critical Severity; thus, DEX or just stuff that increase Crits actually has a greater direct effect than PRE. However, PRE can indirectly affect Support Drones. Having a Support Slotted Passive like Aura of Primal Majesty boosts stats for both you and your Pets. That bonus improves stats across the board, thus affects more than just healing, just makes any Pet tougher, better, etc...thus a PRE-based Pet build is still very optimal. When you see 2 people arguing in Zone about whether or not PRE affects Pets, they are both 100% correct. For you, I'd say keep it as they definitely serve your needs. My main concern is not the lack of PRE, but the fact that you're a Tank, those Drones are constantly in harm's way. An IMPORTANT thing I overlooked before - you are definitely better served ranking Support Drones to Rank 3. Aside from the healing amount, it also causes them to heal over an area, able to heal several targets. The importance of this is that, without that area effect, your Drones will waste their time healing each other instead of you or party members. In other words, without Rank 3, the Support Drones are basically inert things that just float around. I'm not sure where to draw the Advantage Points from in your build. However, you will definitely see the difference, especially since you're a melee Tank where the Drones will get hit. --- Aspect of the Machine - is really quite bad. I've tried to use it, always switched to something else. --- Other Heavy Weapon powers - I really like Skewer (on top of Eruption, which you got already). It's great for single-target and some AoE, I take it with the Follow Through advantage. It doesn't have the Challenging Strikes, though, which I think is why Cleave actually works out better for you. --- In short, the only thing I'd change is ranking Support Drones to Rank 3. Much more important than PRE. If anything, you may wish to drop Support Drones due to the lack of Advantage Points to spare rather than PRE. Very, very tough call where to pull points from.
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Post by thatsnozaku on Nov 22, 2015 11:34:53 GMT -5
4) Laser Knight Advantage: I actually haven't been able to test quite that far yet and was simply going out on a limb with that choice since I liked the idea of being shielding even during attacks. If it doesn't work for melee powers outside of the PA tree then it's definitely quite a bummer for this character's focus on Heavy Weapons and something that would actually force me to shift the build away from the PFF theme entirely and into more a conventional Defiance-oriented setup as mentioned above. -- Speaking of changes, given the character's lack of PRE to really bring out the best of support-oriented abilities like the Support Drones, would that slot be better used by something like Reconstruction Circuits or would RC conflict with one of the many other healing abilities used by the character? If so and/or the slot could be better used in general, much like Implosion Engine, I'm happy for the feedback as to what else I could do with the character. Likewise, if there are better applications of abilities from the Heavy Weapons tree than what I've chosen, I'm very open to changes there as well. I was actually wondering if Aspect of the Machine had any application here or if Enrage was the best non-elemental buff for the job, especially with its Endorphin Rush advantage. All things considered, my concerns are otherwise centered around whether or not my superstat choices are ideal and if any talent/talent trees would better suit the abilities in place (at least in theory, since I don't mean to imply that I expect you or anyone else who contributes here to do all of the legwork for me). Here's what I have so far, with the other possible changes pending feedback and further testing: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse-beta.html?v=11&n=&d=1134WAMBPETM070G000G10HG209K80O9G0534037G00GC0C3B05QG03J5037Q007V00QJ001rWG3SXU3UbTA quick reply. Thanks for all of the feedback about how to best use the drones (if at all), especially regarding stats and stat changes since Alerts went live! I think that short of dropping the ability for another that doesn't need any AP put into it to be worth the slot, the only place I could see myself drawing the points from would be the Rank 2 of both Heavy Weapons attacks. Since this character doesn't tank through sheer damage output as the last build you gave me a lot of help with mostly did, would the loss of Rank 2 on Cleave and Eruption count against him in alerts and versus bosses? And yeah, that's what everyone seems to be saying about AotM. I was actually going to try this guy out as an Awakened Automaton first and everything I read told me I'd have a bad time if I did, so that's how I got here asking how to do something with a Freeform instead. That aside, the Specializations are based on Flowcyto's Heavy Weapons tank outline, with the Talents mostly being the same save for having opted for the more conventional 5/5 from Negotiator over the 3/3/3/3 from Covert Ops training and favoring Rec. All good, or do you see anything warranting a swap? Final build, pending approval: powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse-beta.html?v=11&n=&d=1134WTAMBPEM070G000G10GG208K80O9G0534037G00GC0C3B05QG03J5037Q037V00QJ0010gB3SXU3UbT-- Again, thank you very much for your time! I'm very glad to see a lot of these choices were better made than I'd initially believed, especially since I didn't want to come across as if I'd not taken anything to heart after the work you put into advising me so thoroughly with the last build.
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